a person who's never heard of Jesus

sdowney717

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The same word Christ uses here when the little children are praising Him. And it says out of their mouths, so then spoken from their little hearts, God has perfected praises to Christ. Christ also includes sucking infants who you can not hear speak with understanding, yet they praise Him and in perfected praises, this has God ordained.

Mat 21:16
And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes G3516and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?
 
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shakewell

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The same word Christ uses here when the little children are praising Him. And it says out of their mouths, so then spoken from their little hearts, God has perfected praises to Christ. Christ also includes sucking infants who you can not hear speak with understanding, yet they praise Him and in perfected praises, this has God ordained.

Mat 21:16
And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes G3516and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?
I agree. But I believe that this refers to all babes and sucklings. Amen, and I love it. When my son was born, I looked into his eyes and saw the purest soul I ever saw (if that even makes any sense). He didn't know anything bad about my past; it was like an object lesson of God's absolute forgiveness. Major praise to God!
But I don't believe any of these infants know the literal name of Jesus in any cognitive way.
 
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sdowney717

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I agree. But I believe that this refers to all babes and sucklings. Amen, and I love it. When my son was born, I looked into his eyes and saw the purest soul I ever saw (if that even makes any sense). He didn't know anything bad about my past; it was like an object lesson of God's absolute forgiveness. Major praise to God!
But I don't believe any of these infants know the literal name of Jesus in any cognitive way.

It is the Spirit which gives life, the flesh is not helping one bit. Being born of God is entirely the will of God and Christ. It is His word to a person which gives to them life. So consider , if the Spirit gives life, and the flesh is useless, then this life comes down from God apart from the will of man. Read John 1 about those who are born of God.
John 1,
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Those who receive Christ, it says were already born of God, they were not born of the will of the flesh or the will of man. Election and Christ choosing us, John 15:16, not we choosing Him, actually support infant salvation. When we receive Christ, it is our spirits that have been born of God first, we must be first born of God to enter into the kingdom. And that depends only on the Holy Spirit, not the flesh.

1 John 5English Standard Version (ESV)
Overcoming the World
1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.


None come to Christ unless the Father grants that they do. And when the Father grants they will know the Son, then they will.
We do not have the mind of an infant, but they are created with a spirit, a mind and a body. It is no problem for God to reveal to an infant's spirit the truth about Christ. I consider all infants and young children elect to salvation if they die. However infants do grow up, so if they grow up and never repent, then they were not elected to eternal life and will go to hell fire.

John 6
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Babies and the sinful adults in question have something in common: neither of them have heard of the name of Jesus. If babies who die are saved then there are people who get saved without having heard of the name of Jesus.

This is all speculation. It's better to have your thinking formed by scripture.

You are also missing the most important thing that undermines your ideas. No one wants to come to Christ. Sinners seek God like criminals seek a cop.

On top of that, and without meaning to be rude, your view are Pelagian, which was long ago deemed heresy.
 
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shakewell

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I consider all infants and young children elect to salvation if they die.
Then we agree that all infants who die are saved (even though our views on election are different).

It is no problem for God to reveal to an infant's spirit the truth about Christ.
That sounds like a reasonable statement. I think I agree with it.
But is there not a difference between God revealing to an infant's spirit the truth about Christ; and God revealing to an infant's mind the cognitive knowledge of the historical Jesus?
 
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shakewell

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This is all speculation. It's better to have your thinking formed by scripture.
It's speculation to say that babies are people?
It's speculation to say that God will have all men to be saved?
I think Scripture has formed my thinking on these truths.

You are also missing the most important thing that undermines your ideas. No one wants to come to Christ.
Scripture is full of people who wanted to come to Christ and came.
History is full of people who wanted to come to Christ and came.
My life is full of people who wanted to come to Christ and came.
I happen to be one myself.

Sinners seek God like criminals seek a cop.
Some criminals do seek a cop to turn themselves in. They're in the minority (as in 'few there be that find it'), but it's entirely up to the individual criminal to choose to seek a cop or choose not to.

On top of that, and without meaning to be rude, your view are Pelagian, which was long ago deemed heresy.
That's a pretty broad statement. There's always someone who deems someone to be something. I have a deem or two about you (not to be rude) and everyone else I meet. :)
 
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Thursday

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It seems to me that a person who's never heard of Jesus or seen a Bible has enough revelation to say (from his heart of course), "God be merciful to me a sinner" and thusly be justified. (Luke 18:9-14)

That's consistent with scripture.
 
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Greg J.

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shakewell and others, I'm glad to see you are interested in this subject. :) A lot about God and the truth can be discovered by digging into this.

Since we are all still growing in our knowledge of God, and are called to entrust ourselves to him, we can frequently be confident of our understanding or beliefs (which itself is not wrong), but still have more to learn, which may or may not change how we view things. God loves and blesses those with a student-like attitude!

Young men, in the same way be submissive to those who are older. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because, “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. (1 Peter 5:5-6, 1984 NIV)

Regarding human reasoning, one thing to keep in mind is that any Bible passage needs to be interpreted in the context of everything revealed in the Bible. There are no contradictions in Scripture, but there are apparent contradictions. I remember researching a topic and out of 3 views, I agreed with the one I just finished reading about. That included rereading each of them! They all had good Scriptural support.

Ultimately, the full, actual truth can only be known by revelation from God himself. Seek him for understanding and do not put too much faith in your own knowledge or reasoning.

Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight. Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD and shun evil. (Proverbs 3:5-7, 1984 NIV)

Nor are you to be called ‘teacher,’ for you have one Teacher, the Christ.The greatest among you will be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. (Matthew 23:10-12, 1984 NIV)

Regarding child salvation, I like the attitude Jesus prescribed in this passage:

When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?” Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me. (John 21:21-22, 1984 NIV)
 
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jimmyjimmy

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That's a pretty broad statement.

What you are proposing is heresy, and that's not my opinion. Pelagius was condemned by many councils throughout church history including:

  • Councils of Carthage (412, 416, and 418)
  • Council of Ephesus (431)
  • The Council of Orange (529)
  • Council of Trent (1546) Roman Catholic
  • 2nd Helvetic (1561/66) 8-9. (Swiss-German Reformed)
  • Augsburg Confession (1530) Art. 9, 18 (Lutheran)
  • Gallican Confession (1559) Art. 10 (French Reformed)
  • Belgic Confession (1561) Art. 15 (Lowlands, French/Dutch/German Reformed)
  • The Anglican Articles (1571), 9. (English)
  • Canons of Dort (1618-9), 3/4.2 (Dutch/German/French Reformed).3
It's speculation to say that babies are people?

Yes. Provide chapter and verse, otherwise.

It's speculation to say that God will have all men to be saved?

Universalism?
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Scripture is full of people who wanted to come to Christ and came.
History is full of people who wanted to come to Christ and came.
My life is full of people who wanted to come to Christ and came.
I happen to be one myself.

All of the above examples only happened because of God's direct intervention. Men don't come of their own accord. They never have, and they never will.

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:44)

“None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands;
no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good, not even one.” (Romans 3:10-)
 
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shakewell

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What you are proposing is heresy, and that's not my opinion.
Do you think Jesus was proposing heresy when he said that the publican went down to his house justified? I don't.
What politically motivated state-church councils deemed some guy named Pelagius is of no concern to me.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Do you think Jesus was proposing heresy when he said that the publican went down to his house justified? I don't.
What politically motivated state-church councils deemed some guy named Pelagius is of no concern to me.

"Those who fail to learn from history are bound to repeat it"

Church history should be important to you, but with the answer you gave above, I am out of this thread. You are content in your ignorance.
 
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shakewell

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That doesn't answer my question. How do you back up the claim that all babies are saved, Biblically?
I didn't "claim" that all babies are saved; I said I "believe" all babies who die are saved. I base my belief on the good character of God as revealed in Scripture.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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I didn't "claim" that all babies are saved; I said I "believe" all babies who die are saved. I base my belief on the good character of God as revealed in Scripture.

How do those two things go together? Certainly God is good, but we are not. God is also holy and just, but that typically gets forgotten nowadays. How is there salvation outside of Christ and faith in Him?
 
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shakewell

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How is there salvation outside of Christ ...
There isn't salvation outside of Christ. If the baby is saved, Christ alone saved him.
... and faith in Him?
Salvation doesn't necessarily require faith in all cases. I can save an adult from walking out in front of a moving car without him having faith in me, simply by giving him a shove from behind. He was incapable of having faith in or even being aware of me, and yet he received my free gift of salvation. My saving him was no violation of holiness or justness.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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There isn't salvation outside of Christ. If the baby is saved, Christ alone saved him.

Salvation doesn't necessarily require faith in all cases. I can save an adult from walking out in front of a moving car without him having faith in me, simply by giving him a shove from behind. He was incapable of having faith in or even being aware of me, and yet he received my free gift of salvation. My saving him was no violation of holiness or justness.

When I'm using the term "saved", I'm not talking about not being hit by a car, and neither were you prior to this last statement. I was using the term "saved" as it refers to eternal life, as it is used in the verses below.

Could you please provide scriptural support for your theory that people are saved without faith in Christ? Below are some texts which clearly oppose that idea.

  • John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
  • Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."
  • Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."
  • Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
  • Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
  • Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
  • Rom. 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."
  • Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."
  • Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
  • Rom. 9:33, "just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
  • Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
  • Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
  • Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
  • Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
  • Gal. 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."
  • Gal. 3:14, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
  • Gal. 3:22, "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."
  • Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
  • Eph. 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."
  • Eph. 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."
  • Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
 
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EmSw

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When I'm using the term "saved", I'm not talking about not being hit by a car, and neither were you prior to this last statement. I was using the term "saved" as it refers to eternal life, as it is used in the verses below.

Could you please provide scriptural support for your theory that people are saved without faith in Christ? Below are some texts which clearly oppose that idea.

  • John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
  • Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."
  • Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."
  • Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
  • Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
  • Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
  • Rom. 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."
  • Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."
  • Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
  • Rom. 9:33, "just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
  • Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
  • Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
  • Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
  • Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
  • Gal. 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."
  • Gal. 3:14, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
  • Gal. 3:22, "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."
  • Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
  • Eph. 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."
  • Eph. 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."
  • Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

Perhaps you could provide scriptural support for your theory that babies are lost who haven't had sin birthed in their lives. The wages of sin, not lack of faith, is death.

James 1
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it GIVES BIRTH to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, BRINGS FORTH DEATH.
 
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