A More Nuanced Anti-Masonry

[D+C]

I recently partook in a discussion of Freemasonry on the Baptist forums that lead me to research anti-masonry in great detail. To immediately declare my own interest, both my grandfathers are masons, having joined in the wake of WWII seeking camraderie after leaving the forces. Both are lifelong Anglicans, both thoroughly orthodox in their theology.

I would appreciate some debate on the following points, as they are still forming in my mind and I find the fire of debate helps me to form my own beliefs. I'm putting to one side arguments such as whether Christians should be a part of a secret organisation/swear oaths/be members of groups that are not expressly Christian. I think these are highly subjective.

It strikes me that the majority (although not all) of legitimate Christian critique of Freemasonry should be directed at what is known as Continental Freemasonry, rather than Freemasonry in general. It is Continental Freemasonry that embraced anti-clericalism and revolutionary liberalism, ideologies that were rejected by so-called Anglo/American Freemasonry that dominates in the USA and UK. As such it is the lodges that adhere to this Continental Freemasonry that should attract the ire of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox communities.

Continental Freemasonry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Anticlericalism and Freemasonry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That is not to say that anything that is not of Continental Freemasonry should receive a "free ride" from Christians, but again it is important to understand the target of your disapproval. Two allegations you often hear made against Masons are the teachings of the "33 degrees" and the unchristian quotes of Albert Pike. Neither of these relate to Craft Lodges, the most common lodges to be found, which confer three degrees none of which are definitively contrary to Christianity. Both Pike and the 33 degrees refers to the Scottish Rite, which is appendant to Freemasonry and is anti-clerical and esoteric in orientation and as such is contrary to Christianity. It is known as the Rose Croix in the UK.

Scottish Rite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Another esoteric appendant body is the Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia, an English organisation inspired by rosicrucianism. Again, one to be avoided by orthodox Christians.

Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Scottish Rite, Rose Croix and the Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia are clearly unacceptable to all orthodox Christians. Continental Freemasonry is clearly unacceptable to Eastern Orthodox and Catholic Christians. Beyond that it is up to you whether the amity between craft freemasonry and these bodies is sufficient to condemn the whole fraternity. To my mind (so far) it is entirely possible for Christians of any denomination to maintain a clear conscience while joining an Anglo/American Craft Lodge and any of the religiously neutral appendant bodies or the orthodox Christian bodies. For example the Masonic Knights Templar require the following from their members:

Love, honour and fear God, walk after his commandments.
Maintain and defend the Christian Faith and the honour, dignity and interests of our Order.
Be loyal to your Sovereign, dutiful to the Grand Master and obedient to those who rule over you.
Prefer honour to wealth.
Be just and true in word and deed.
Give no willing cause of offence to any; but, while opposing wrong and injustice, deport yourselves courteously and gently.
Assist the distressed, the widow and the fatherless
Eschew all debasing employment, recreation and company; abhor pride and selfishness and so raise the standard of chivalrous honour, striving for the welfare of your Brethren

Precepts of the Order and Membership Qualifications

All thoughts are welcomed, I remain convinceable in either direction!

God Bless
D+C

 

[listed]

I recently partook in a discussion of Freemasonry on the Baptist forums that lead me to research anti-masonry in great detail. To immediately declare my own interest, both my grandfathers are masons, having joined in the wake of WWII seeking camraderie after leaving the forces. Both are lifelong Anglicans, both thoroughly orthodox in their theology.

I would appreciate some debate on the following points, as they are still forming in my mind and I find the fire of debate helps me to form my own beliefs. I'm putting to one side arguments such as whether Christians should be a part of a secret organisation/swear oaths/be members of groups that are not expressly Christian. I think these are highly subjective.

It strikes me that the majority (although not all) of legitimate Christian critique of Freemasonry should be directed at what is known as Continental Freemasonry, rather than Freemasonry in general. It is Continental Freemasonry that embraced anti-clericalism and revolutionary liberalism, ideologies that were rejected by so-called Anglo/American Freemasonry that dominates in the USA and UK. As such it is the lodges that adhere to this Continental Freemasonry that should attract the ire of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox communities.

Continental Freemasonry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Anticlericalism and Freemasonry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That is not to say that anything that is not of Continental Freemasonry should receive a "free ride" from Christians, but again it is important to understand the target of your disapproval. Two allegations you often hear made against Masons are the teachings of the "33 degrees" and the unchristian quotes of Albert Pike. Neither of these relate to Craft Lodges, the most common lodges to be found, which confer three degrees none of which are definitively contrary to Christianity. Both Pike and the 33 degrees refers to the Scottish Rite, which is appendant to Freemasonry and is anti-clerical and esoteric in orientation and as such is contrary to Christianity. It is known as the Rose Croix in the UK.

Scottish Rite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Another esoteric appendant body is the Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia, an English organisation inspired by rosicrucianism. Again, one to be avoided by orthodox Christians.

Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Scottish Rite, Rose Croix and the Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia are clearly unacceptable to all orthodox Christians. Continental Freemasonry is clearly unacceptable to Eastern Orthodox and Catholic Christians. Beyond that it is up to you whether the amity between craft freemasonry and these bodies is sufficient to condemn the whole fraternity. To my mind (so far) it is entirely possible for Christians of any denomination to maintain a clear conscience while joining an Anglo/American Craft Lodge and any of the religiously neutral appendant bodies or the orthodox Christian bodies. For example the Masonic Knights Templar require the following from their members:

Love, honour and fear God, walk after his commandments.
Maintain and defend the Christian Faith and the honour, dignity and interests of our Order.
Be loyal to your Sovereign, dutiful to the Grand Master and obedient to those who rule over you.
Prefer honour to wealth.
Be just and true in word and deed.
Give no willing cause of offence to any; but, while opposing wrong and injustice, deport yourselves courteously and gently.
Assist the distressed, the widow and the fatherless
Eschew all debasing employment, recreation and company; abhor pride and selfishness and so raise the standard of chivalrous honour, striving for the welfare of your Brethren

Precepts of the Order and Membership Qualifications

All thoughts are welcomed, I remain convinceable in either direction!

God Bless
D+C

It is very sad indeed that these needs aren't met by or at the church.

I would still vote no and absolutely not against Masonary of any type. This is a spiritual issue IMHO.

I think the good things they do are a ceceiving cover for the spiritual issues. I would like to discuss the subject here. This subject is supposed to be in unorthodox section. I don't ususally go there.

 

[OpenDoor]

1-3 FreeMasons -VS- Christianity DEBATE - YouTube

2-3 FreeMasons -VS- Christianity DEBATE - YouTube

3-3 FreeMasons -VS- Christianity DEBATE - YouTube

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

MOD HAT...

Before this goes any further I'm going to draw everyone's attention to one of our rules:

Discussions about Nicene and Trinitarian beliefs may take place in the Christian-Only forums, all discussions regarding non-Nicene and non-Trinitarian topics will take place in Unorthodox Theology. Those topics include (but are not limited to)
● Universalism
● Open Theism
● Full Preterism
● Trinitarianism
● Annihilationism
● Masonry
● discussions related to unorthodox Christian religions

Note the Second last point.

In accord with this rule, I'm moving this thread to Unorthodox Theology.

Mark
Staff Supervisor

 

[ALX25]

As a former mason i can tell you this organization is NOT of the God of the Holy Bible...

1. In order to be a mason you need to believe in a god or any god , however you must believe in a god..

2. You must be a male


If you are a christian you will discover many aspects of masonry that go's against Gods word..

ANY organization such as masonry that attempts to teach man or instruct man in morality with multiple volumes of sacred laws (VSL's) gathered under an umbrella of multiple god"s needs to be watched carefully...and needs very much so to be deemed UNORTHODOX.

And please take notice that there are many things found in the first "three degree's " that are contrary to christianity for example the oath's the candidate is required to memorize and repeat.


OBLIGATION.

I, ( name of candidate) , of my own free will and accord, in the presence of Almighty God, and this Worshipful Lodge, erected to Him, and dedicated to the holy Sts. John, do hereby and hereon (Master presses his gavel on candidate's knuckles) most solemnly and sincerely promise and swear, that I will always hail, ever conceal, and never reveal, any of the arts, parts, or points of the hidden mysteries of Ancient Free Masonry, which may have been, or hereafter shall be, at this time, or any future period, communicated to me, as such, to any person or persons whomsoever, except it be to a true and lawful brother Mason, or in a regularly constituted Lodge of Masons; nor unto him or them until, by strict trial, due examination, or lawful information, I shall have found him, or them, as lawfully entitled to the same as I am myself. I furthermore promise and swear that I will not print, paint, stamp, stain, cut, carve, mark, or engrave them, or cause the same to be done, on any thing movable or immovable, capable of receiving the least impression of a word, syllable, letter, or character, whereby the same may become legible or intelligible to any person under the canopy of heaven, and the secrets of Masonry thereby unlawfully obtained through my unworthiness.
All this I most solemnly, sincerely promise and swear, with a firm and steadfast resolution to perform the same, without any mental reservation or secret evasion of mind whatever, binding


p. 35
myself under no less penalty than that of having my throat cut across, my tongue torn out by its roots, and my body buried in the rough sands of the sea, at low-water mark, where the tide ebbs and flows twice in twenty-four hours, should I ever knowingly violate this my Entered Apprentice obligation. So help me God, and keep me steadfast in the due performance of the same.

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

Freemasonry is Devil's Empire, The reason that so many protestant denominations appear everywhere is because Religious indifferentism caused by Freemasonry.

Next video shows an extensive portray of masonry doctrine and also a mistaken conclusion, He at the end of the video apologizes masonry comparing it to Popes tyranny... ...He basically says "well yes, masonry is satanic, but it is better than Papacy"....

He portrays accurately two facts, First that all non Catholic churches come from Masonry's Principles of Freedom, and second that the True Enemy of Masonry is Catholicism.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

<Snip>

He portrays accurately two facts, First that all non Catholic churches come from Masonry's Principles of Freedom, and second that the True Enemy of Masonry is Catholicism.


<Snip>

With the exception of confessional Lutheranism; membership in any secret society (not just Masons) results in immediate excommunication; because we to recognize that it is anti-Christian by nature.

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

With the exception of confessional Lutheranism; membership in any secret society (not just Masons) results in immediate excommunication; because we to recognize that it is anti-Christian by nature.

The Author of the Video points Luther as one of the rebels of papacy, and in fact the Rose and Cross of Lutheranism has been vindicated by Rosicrucian Masons.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The Author of the Video points Luther as one of the rebels of papacy, and in fact the Rose and Cross of Lutheranism has been vindicated by Rosicrucian Masons.

This is no more a link to the Rosicrucian than the bishop's miter is to a link to the Babalonian Fish God; or the upsid-down Cross of St. Peter is a satanic symbol:

Oh, look! The Pope is pagan, and look, it's the sign of the devil!!! Run for the hills....

You know better than to take stuff out of context like that.

BTW, Lutheranism predates the Rosecrans by about a couple of hundred years.

Let's keep it real; OK?

 

[timewerx]

For example the Masonic Knights Templar require the following from their members:

Love, honour and fear God, walk after his commandments.
Maintain and defend the Christian Faith and the honour, dignity and interests of our Order.
Be loyal to your Sovereign, dutiful to the Grand Master and obedient to those who rule over you.
Prefer honour to wealth.
Be just and true in word and deed.
Give no willing cause of offence to any; but, while opposing wrong and injustice, deport yourselves courteously and gently.
Assist the distressed, the widow and the fatherless
Eschew all debasing employment, recreation and company; abhor pride and selfishness and so raise the standard of chivalrous honour, striving for the welfare of your Brethren

Those are generally Christian ideals.

Yet, Freemasonry deny being a religious org, despite the fact they don't allow Atheists membership in their org (belief in a God is a requirement).

They are deliberately lying in your face.

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

This is no more a link to the Rosicrucian than the bishop's miter is to a link to the Babalonian Fish God; or the upsid-down Cross of St. Peter is a satanic symbol:

Oh, look! The Pope is pagan, and look, it's the sign of the devil!!! Run for the hills....

You know better than to take stuff out of context like that.

BTW, Lutheranism predates the Rosecrans by about a couple of hundred years.

Let's keep it real; OK?

hey! A Cartoon made by protestants seems quite authentic prove of Mitres to be Pagan fish hats....

Wow, The inverted Cross is ¿Satanic?

According to the Fathers of the Church, The inverted Cross was always recognized as Peter's Cross, he was killed that way...


But no Father of the Church ever tells of a Rose&Cross Rucicrucian ¿Do they?

minute 23:00

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

hey! A Cartoon made by protestants seems quite authentic prove of Mitres to be Pagan fish hats....

Wow, The inverted Cross is ¿Satanic?

According to the Fathers of the Church, The inverted Cross was always recognized as Peter's Cross, he was killed that way...


But no Father of the Church ever tells of a Rose&Cross Rucicrucian ¿Do they?

minute 23:00

While the Liberal Church which call them selves "Lutheran" allow membership, like your Chruch the Confessional Churches do not.

Since you are not fond of protestant sources, why would you cite one as definitive proof? Like so many of these "protestant" videos, they are designed to sensationalize. If the Rosicrucian decided to use Luther's coat of arms; we have no more control than if a satanic rock band want to wear tattoos of upside-down crosses.

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

ok, Some Lutherans do not allow association to Freemasonry, but you can not deny that Association between protestantism and Masonry is not hard to find even in public manifestations, like the one of the Irish Orange Order, a masonic lodge disgized as a protestant nationalistic anticatholic movement:

This Royal Black Institution High Lodge Member shows the masonic symbol on his right shoulder.

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

Marktkirche Lutheran Church in Hannover

Outside the Doors

The Bell Tower

 

[Albion]

I recently partook in a discussion of Freemasonry on the Baptist forums that lead me to research anti-masonry in great detail. To immediately declare my own interest, both my grandfathers are masons, having joined in the wake of WWII seeking camraderie after leaving the forces. Both are lifelong Anglicans, both thoroughly orthodox in their theology.

Interestingly enough, though, this is about the only genuine concern that Christians contemplating membership in the lodge might have. Of course, it's not open and shut, but some Christians think that no promise or vow is ever to be made outside of the church (wedding vows, for example).

It strikes me that the majority (although not all) of legitimate Christian critique of Freemasonry should be directed at what is known as Continental Freemasonry, rather than Freemasonry in general.

True.

That is not to say that anything that is not of Continental Freemasonry should receive a "free ride" from Christians, but again it is important to understand the target of your disapproval. Two allegations you often hear made against Masons are the teachings of the "33 degrees" and the unchristian quotes of Albert Pike. Neither of these relate to Craft Lodges, the most common lodges to be found, which confer three degrees none of which are definitively contrary to Christianity. Both Pike and the 33 degrees refers to the Scottish Rite, which is appendant to Freemasonry and is anti-clerical and esoteric in orientation and as such is contrary to Christianity. It is known as the Rose Croix in the UK.

Also true, although I'm not necessarily agreeing to the criticisms of the Scottish Rite referred to here.

The Scottish Rite, Rose Croix and the Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia are clearly unacceptable to all orthodox Christians.

That's clearly doubtful. Many Anglican priests and bishops are members of the Scottish rite and so are Methodist members of the clergy and those of other church bodies. The fact that some other churches generally take a different view shouldn't be thought to be the one and only answer to this.

 

[Albion]

...The reason that so many protestant denominations appear everywhere is because Religious indifferentism caused by Freemasonry.

Actually, this is one of the weakest of the many criticisms of Freemasonry. Of course, the Reformation occurred in history before the lodge. In addition to that, Masonry remains officially neutral when it comes to one's choice of God and church. The idea that this amounts to being "indifferent" is not only incorrect, it's a misuse of the language. To be tolerant or neutral does not mean that anyone is indifferent to the beliefs involved.

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

Actually, this is one of the weakest of the many criticisms of Freemasonry. Of course, the Reformation occurred in history before the lodge. In addition to that, Masonry remains officially neutral when it comes to one's choice of God and church. The idea that this amounts to being "indifferent" is not only incorrect, it's a misuse of the language. To be tolerant or neutral does not mean that anyone is indifferent to the beliefs involved.

The idea that State and Religion can or must be separated come from Masonry which was born in Germanic speaking languages and nations, not among Latin-Romance Languages nations. The Kings of the Protestant nations also enforced A National Church, either Anglican or Lutheran, and from Anglicanism came Methodism and from Lutheranism came Calvinism and from Calvinism came many more denominations.

The MayFlower was a ship full of a denomination which didn't fit to any other nation in Europe. the idea of States separated from churches is masonic but is also result of the continuous divisions of Protestantism, it is simply incredible that there are 40,000 Independent Churches in USA alone. some of them belong to councils or larger congregations. But indicates that the State had to be driven by an elite which basically has to be indifferent to any confession, that is masonry.

It is also true that Masonry through government of USA, founds the growing of "Religious Diversity" it is Basically the founding of DIVISSIONS among Christians. The Idea that you can believe whatever you want is a fundational stone of modern Masonic Republics. And that philosophy only gives power to the ones who have the power. If State and Religion must be separated... ¿Why would state be founding religious diversity?

 

[Albion]

... it is simply incredible that there are 40,000 Independent Churches in USA alone.

It's been said before, but there aren't 40,000. That study listed as separate denominations every church organization and also inflated the figures in other ways, too. It also said that there are over 300 Roman Catholic churches, not different rites, not unaffiliated heretical church bodies calling themselves "Catholic," but separate and "independent" Roman Catholic churches. So that should give you a taste for how misleading the survey was.

But indicates that the State had to be driven by an elite which basically has to be indifferent to any confession, that is masonry.

No. That is the attitude of the State. It's not the attitude of Masonry.

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

It's been said before, but there aren't 40,000. That study listed as separate denominations every church organization and also inflated the figures in other ways, too. It also said that there are over 300 Roman Catholic churches, not different rites, not unaffiliated heretical church bodies calling themselves "Catholic," but separate and "independent" Roman Catholic churches. So that should give you a taste for how misleading the survey was.

right, Would we agree in 1000? or in 100? or 10? or may be 2?

But God said ONE.

No. That is the attitude of the State. It's not the attitude of Masonry.

Of Masonic States, The state is in fact the Military Power, the agent of control of the Justice and of Law, that function was made by the Head of state, the king, or the Ruller of the Army.

Freemasonry basically begun in social revolutions which gained the Armies of the states against the kings and once the king and the army forces loyal to the kings were defeated the New World order was established with a Masonic Elite.

The states/military power exist to defend and preserve the identity and territory of the people which founds the state, fundamental element of Identity is Religion, the way the people understands its relation with God, Legitimacy only comes from divine Justice and fairness, as Tzung Tsu said in his book The Art of War, any war has to be endorsed by Religion to give courage to soldiers to fight for what will be granted as God's Will.

When there is no religion endorsing State wars, the state then has to create its own religion, Masony is that way a religion to endorse masons sense of rightfulness.

Part of Masonic States, is the Veneration of The flag, the Hymn, the Army, the Money, the Institutions, the President. Those elements are indoctrinated to citizens to mentally prepare them to fight for the Elite even to their own death due to a false sense of dutty.

 

[Albion]

Of Masonic States

There aren't any "Masonic States."

Now before this becomes a fullblown debate, all discussions of this topic belong on the Conspiracy Theories thread. I'll see you there if that's your choice.