A Letter to Frank Schaeffer from one of our EOC Priests

[rusmeister]

Thanks, folks.
FTR, I have no trouble with public statements about his public statements. I'm only concerned about general comments on his character that might step over that line into judgement of the man; public rebuking of what definitely ought to start as a private thing. It ought to happen within his own parish. So if we all think that Mr. Schaeffer is doing serious damage to our image, message and teachings, then it probably ought to be his bishop that we ought to be dialoging with - then bishop to priest in the proper Church manner, so at least the priest and parish are straight, so he doesn't drag a lot of people off with him.

I am certainly taken by surprise by some of these things - I had heard about controversy, but previously it had not been about his stands on things the Church actually takes stands on - it had all been about his attitude towards Protestantism.

 

[ex-pat]

Agreed. FWIW, his bishop is Metropolitan Methodios of Boston.

 

[buzuxi02]

I heard Frank speak at my parish's 50th year anniversary. He was very good, and seemed to have a good grasp on Orthodoxy. Of course this was back in 1995.

Would anyone know what was the catalyst for his change? For instance his views on abortion are certainly the opposite today than they were when he published Dancing Alone. It seems something in his recent past has made him bitter.

 

[Ignatius21]

He certainly does have a negative effect on the image of Orthodoxy among evangelicals and Reformed, who are probably two groups most fond of the writings of Francis and Edith Schaeffer. When I was first poking around in Orthodoxy I found that few in my Presbyterian circles knew much about it, but they all knew about Frank Schaeffer's virulent rejection of his own parents and his increasing liberalism...and by extension some questioned with things like "Orthodoxy...isn't that what Frank Schaeffer coverted to?" Sort of the opposite of the celebrity effect mentioned earlier.

So yes, he has had and is having a negative effect on more people than is probably realized. It appears that his harsh criticisms have moved to the point of criticizing any and all form of faith in anything that puts moral constraints on humanity.

 

[Joshua G.]

I feel like my own question is still dangling out there...
Is he in a church in canonical communion? Does he have a priest? Why does it fall to a priest with no particular connection to him to publicly rebuke him in a letter? Where is his own priest?

It was a little ambiguous to me. I wasn't sure if they gave up on the idea of sending it publicly or on the letter altogether. If you are right that this was public first, it does seem to break Christian fraternal protocol. That said, it is impossible for me to imagine that anyone could believe he hasn't been privately admonished by many Orthodox countless times by letter, anonymously, and by Orthodox he knows personally and intimately. I think this is one of those things where we although we don't have public proof of it, we know without a doubt that he has been spoken to privately time and time again. It's impossible for me to imagine otherwise since he has been off of his spiritual rocker very publicly for the better part of a decade (if we're being conservative).

With that said, I actually think this approach is fine (I could be wrong) and this si why. I think it is important that this NOW be done publicly as it has been for the sake of others who read him and think he represents a viable Orthodox set of stances. My ultra liberal agnostic (at best) uncle likes him and once even sent me an article of his from the Huffington Post when he realized that Frank was technically Orthodox. To my Uncle, this is viable in Orthodoxy. That may not matter a great deal since Frank did not cause a stumbling block for my Uncle being that true Orthodox stances would not have brought him to the true faith but is only fodder for him to detest it.

HOWEVER, many many many god-fearing Christians (non-Orthodox) have been turned away from the faith because they saw the OC as implicitly supporting his bitter means even when his views were technically Orthodox back in the day (although, it seems, lacking in spirit). Many of us have met them and some are here in spite of him. While I am sure that there are those who are here because of him, I would pray that they moved beyond that less than basic level of anger as a prod to convert and came to a fuller joy in the faith. I know people who came to the Faith through many non-Orthodox means (Mormonism, Buddhism, faux-Orthodox publications, etc). It doesn't mean that it is good in and of itself. It means God can do anything.

I always felt intellectually stimulated after hearing his lectures (in my convert days) but spiritually gross because of HOW he did it. I often left with a feeling of "yeah, protestantism is dumb" rather than "it's incorrect". The conclusion is different but the sense of triumphalism was poisoning.

I am partly suprised with his later developments over the past years, but it actually makes more sense if indeed his conversion was inspired more out of anger towards his past than fulfillment in the Faith.

Josh

 

[Joshua G.]

I heard Frank speak at my parish's 50th year anniversary. He was very good, and seemed to have a good grasp on Orthodoxy. Of course this was back in 1995.

Would anyone know what was the catalyst for his change? For instance his views on abortion are certainly the opposite today than they were when he published Dancing Alone. It seems something in his recent past has made him bitter.

You see, although I see a change in his politics, I honestly don't see a change in that underlying bitterness that had always been there. Perhaps the only other significant change is that (maybe) in the "good old days" he was aware of his bitterness and saw it as something to work on whereas nowdays that struggle isn't as apparent. I could be totally wrong. But in the end, my concern is not as much with him and his soul (it is, but what can I do about it that his bishop and priest and Orthodox brethern who know him intimately aren't already hopefully trying to do?) but with how he comes across. I have heard from many people (even those not of the Reformed tradition) the exact sentiments expressed by Ignatius' last post here. His public speaking has always been, in my estimate, an overall liability for the Church because the spirit of love has been so overshadowed by hautiness, bitterness and triumphalism. It attracts ppl for the wrong reasons and scares others for the right reasons.

I think he is a very intelligent man from anything I can tell and I have no doubt that his grasp f Orthodoxy was academically spot on. And I know the above sounds very judgmental but I say what I do above out of concern for those reading him. It is very very very possible that he sees these faults and struggles with them.. he just does so too publicly. But if he struggles with them or simply expresses himself extremely poorly then good for him in working through this. But not publicly. I used to not feel so strongly about him. I jsut used to think that he made good points but his attitude just wasn't my cup of tea. But now when I listen to his lectures from back in the day I think "this is so Orthodox and SO UN-Orthodox!"

So, I am very public in my admonishment of his stuff (not his soul) both then and now so that hopefully some God-fearing non-Orthodox stumbles upon this thread and says "oh, so he doesn't represent real Orthodoxy... maybe I will give it another looksee."

God have mercy on Franky and on me!

Josh

 

[Joshua G.]

Catholicism really is. I notice that most of the threads in OBOB and on most online Catholic forums are all about politics and pro-Republican agendas.

In fairness this drives a lot of OBOBers crazy as well and if you look at who the authors of those threads tend to be you realize that it is a small handful OBOBers that make it political.

They tried to create a political subforum... in fact, I thought they did. But it was controversial. OT, but thought I would throw that out there.


Josh

 

[Ortho_Cat]

I really hope that people on the outside realize Orthodoxy is a lot bigger than the opinion of one "celebrity" convert with a megaphone.

 

[Joshua G.]

It's one thing to realize that it's bigger than that, but it's another to realize that he is completely off-base and not even the littlest bit representative of ORthodoxy. That's the problem I see.

 

[Dorothea]

It's one thing to realize that it's bigger than that, but it's another to realize that he is completely off-base and not even the littlest bit representative of ORthodoxy. That's the problem I see.

Me, too.

 

[SoulFoodEater]

He should be excommunicated for speaking such blasphemies. Christ told us to beware of false prophets which come to us in sheep's clothing for inwardly they are ravening wolves.


Matthew 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit.
18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits."


The fruit of his preaching is more about hatred and prejudice towards other Christians and correct Christian teaching than anything else, his mouth should be stopped.

Titus 1:10 For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party.
11 They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach.
12 One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons."
13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,
14 not devoting themselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth.
15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.
16 They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work."



I went a little too far with Scripture did I not?

Lord save Mr Frank Shaeffer and lead him to follow the way of righteousness...


EDIT: He's teaching a new heresy, I call it SUPER MODERNISM

 

[rusmeister]

In fairness this drives a lot of OBOBers crazy as well and if you look at who the authors of those threads tend to be you realize that it is a small handful OBOBers that make it political.

They tried to create a political subforum... in fact, I thought they did. But it was controversial. OT, but thought I would throw that out there.


Josh

I actually agree with Gurney to an extent here, Josh. (I agree with you on everything else; it's much easier to define the small number of things we disagree on here)
I would say that the RCC is much more driven to political action in this world; that its theology and logic place a stronger emphasis on what they should try to accomplish in society here. (That the actions can be mistaken and inadvertently result in greater evil is something they seem to have a correspondingly lesser awareness of.) I would expect that to result in a larger number of politically-oriented posts on OBOB.

Put shortly, we have a (relatively) greater emphasis on changing ourselves first, and they have a greater (and more wrong) emphasis on rushing out to change the world.

 

[MKJ]

I actually agree with Gurney to an extent here, Josh. (I agree with you on everything else; it's much easier to define the small number of things we disagree on here)
I would say that the RCC is much more driven to political action in this world; that its theology and logic place a stronger emphasis on what they should try to accomplish in society here. (That the actions can be mistaken and inadvertently result in greater evil is something they seem to have a correspondingly lesser awareness of.) I would expect that to result in a larger number of politically-oriented posts on OBOB.

Put shortly, we have a (relatively) greater emphasis on changing ourselves first, and they have a greater (and more wrong) emphasis on rushing out to change the world.

I think you're all right myself. THe CC does have a different emphasis politically - there is a lot of high level Catholic writing about how we live in community - that is, political organization. But there are Catholics, including some at OBOB, who make that into a kind of political discussion which I think is somewhat different than what the Catholic Church intends to suggest is required or appropriate. Perhaps particularly Americans, and I think that is under the influence of the fundamentalist movement.

 

[Joshua G.]

I think the RCC in the US can get a little lost in the politics, much more than the OC. However, I commend His Holiness Met. JONAH for calling Orthodox Christians to action in the fight against abortion. We are so painfully and cowardly silent (as a community) on this issue many practicing Orthodox I have met aren't even sure what the stance of the OC is. Yeah, there are a LOT of liberal Catholics out there, but at least they are well aware of the fact that their views fly in the face of the Church. Meanwhile many Orthodox are so lost on this and it's just amazingly pitiful. SO, while abortion is surely not a purely political issue, it wouldn't hurt for our heirarchs and clergy to be more united and outspoken on these and other social evils and not be afraid to do unpopular things like march in the hoards as priests and laymen for the issues that make up the moral fabric of our society.

In the end, there are pitfalls on both sides, but sometimes I wonder if our quietness is not so much out of keeping our eyes on things beyond this world but rather, at least in part, wanting to not rock the boat to much in a country that has been strange to most of our spiritual predecessors up until now.

Josh

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

In my area, the conservative hardcore GOP-dominated central valley of California, Republican is synonymous with Catholic to many people. If you're not a Republican, you're with Obama, seen by most here to be the anti-Christ.

I actually had a mom tell me, I kid you not, at a parent teacher conference a week ago, that all teachers in my school district SHOULD HAVE TO BE Republicans since the valley is conservative-dominated. She said that all kids should be influenced by "good" conservative teachers, not "brain-washing liberal democrats." Being the professional that I am, I quickly changed that subject! Absurd...She said, "I can't get over how some teachers around here teach global warming and evolution and all this garbage! I moved here to the valley last year specifically so my kids would have Republican teachers!"

This sentiment exists in Catholicism here as well. All the cars parked outside the Catholic parishes say "Bush" or "O-bummer" or "I vote Republican!" or some profane thing about Obama and Biden. You'll see bumper stickers with Obama and a hammer and sickle commie reference, etc.

Internet Catholics tend to be very Republican-only.

My Catholic friends say "dang right!" when the Catholic Church speaks out against communism or gay marriages or abortion but when the CC speaks out against poverty or the need to have a world banking oversight commitee or kindness to illegal immigrants or universal health care, my friends call it "meddling" by the bishops LOL....

I think you're all right myself. THe CC does have a different emphasis politically - there is a lot of high level Catholic writing about how we live in community - that is, political organization. But there are Catholics, including some at OBOB, who make that into a kind of political discussion which I think is somewhat different than what the Catholic Church intends to suggest is required or appropriate. Perhaps particularly Americans, and I think that is under the influence of the fundamentalist movement.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I wonder how much of it is silence and how much of it is name recognition? In all fairness, how many people in the U.S. know who Metroplitan Jonah even is? Most people in the U.S. think "Orthodoxy" is Jewish! The Pope has a larger and more powerful, more prominent, and historically influential podium on the world stage. The Orthodox Church has a small voice in the West whereas the papacy speaks with a loud and usually well-respected voice. The sex pedophilia scandals of recent years have really done a lot to make the pope look tone-deaf and incompetent in that area and they've suffered a credibility loss to be sure. Many people are rolling their eyes at the pope's words lately because of the ongoing nauscious scandals and his history of not doing much about them along with JP2. But even so, the Pope has name recognition and I think the Orthodox Church lacks that. Orthodoxy came late to the show so to speak....doesn't have the numbers in the States either.

I think the RCC in the US can get a little lost in the politics, much more than the OC. However, I commend His Holiness Met. JONAH for calling Orthodox Christians to action in the fight against abortion. We are so painfully and cowardly silent (as a community) on this issue many practicing Orthodox I have met aren't even sure what the stance of the OC is. Yeah, there are a LOT of liberal Catholics out there, but at least they are well aware of the fact that their views fly in the face of the Church. Meanwhile many Orthodox are so lost on this and it's just amazingly pitiful. SO, while abortion is surely not a purely political issue, it wouldn't hurt for our heirarchs and clergy to be more united and outspoken on these and other social evils and not be afraid to do unpopular things like march in the hoards as priests and laymen for the issues that make up the moral fabric of our society.

In the end, there are pitfalls on both sides, but sometimes I wonder if our quietness is not so much out of keeping our eyes on things beyond this world but rather, at least in part, wanting to not rock the boat to much in a country that has been strange to most of our spiritual predecessors up until now.

Josh

 

[Kristos]

I haven't read any of his books and I don't plan on it. Too much vinegar.

 

[Lukaris]

I have a deep distrust of Schaeffer & a possible agenda he may want to shape American Orthodoxy with & then spread it elsewhere. American Orthodoxy is suffocated by much old world baggage under the guise of tradtions but I think his father was closer to being Orthodox than whatever he now claims to be. He seems to be just another radical, secularist, liberal Protestant with a non Christian agenda. MY previous sentence regards radicals within Protestantsim but not tradtional followers of faith within Protestantism.

 

[Joshua G.]

I wonder how much of it is silence and how much of it is name recognition? In all fairness, how many people in the U.S. know who Metroplitan Jonah even is? Most people in the U.S. think "Orthodoxy" is Jewish! The Pope has a larger and more powerful, more prominent, and historically influential podium on the world stage. The Orthodox Church has a small voice in the West whereas the papacy speaks with a loud and usually well-respected voice. The sex pedophilia scandals of recent years have really done a lot to make the pope look tone-deaf and incompetent in that area and they've suffered a credibility loss to be sure. Many people are rolling their eyes at the pope's words lately because of the ongoing nauscious scandals and his history of not doing much about them along with JP2. But even so, the Pope has name recognition and I think the Orthodox Church lacks that. Orthodoxy came late to the show so to speak....doesn't have the numbers in the States either.

I can definitely see that point however it doesn't explain why so many Orthodox themselves are unaware. It's getting better, no doubt thanks to converts from conservative protestant denominations but I think the OC could stand to be a little more involved in speaking out against the social infirmities of our time.

 

[Dorothea]

I have a deep distrust of Schaeffer & a possible agenda he may want to shape American Orthodoxy with & then spread it elsewhere. American Orthodoxy is suffocated by much old world baggage under the guise of tradtions but I think his father was closer to being Orthodox than whatever he now claims to be. He seems to be just another radical, secularist, liberal Protestant with a non Christian agenda. MY previous sentence regards radicals within Protestantsim but not tradtional followers of faith within Protestantism.

Sounds about right to me.