A Lecture on Rev. 20 by Amillennialist, Steve Gregg

[Old Timer]

Preterists evidently have no scriptural basis for their so called belief in the future coming of The Lord..

They base that on a creed..

The rulers are busy indeed...

 

[Old Timer]

Evidently the Holy scriptures can't show us anything that actually is to come..

But the creeds can.. :o

 

[parousia70]

I only speak only for myself, not for preterists... that is a huge mistake on your part... would be like me saying all futurists believe in post trib...

Christian forums basis their statement of Faith on the Creed as well.
You can not post here unless you adhere to the creed.

If you object to Christian adherence the creeds Old timer, perhaps you should take those objections to the unorthodox section where they belong.

 

[parousia70]

Evidently the Holy scriptures can't show us anything that actually is to come..

But the creeds can.. :o

Eschatologically speaking, you are correct.

Plenty of non eschatological Bible prophesy that foretell of future to us realities however....

 

[Old Timer]

I only speak only for myself, not for preterists... that is a huge mistake on your part... would be like me saying all futurists believe in post trib...

Christian forums basis their statement of Faith on the Creed as well.
You can not post here unless you adhere to the creed.

If you object to Christian adherence the creeds Old timer, perhaps you should take those objections to the unorthodox section where they belong.

I'm sure that it won't be long until anything but the truth can be posted anywhere, not just here in a forum.

..as we see that Day approaching...

Sadly many can only see the past.. and must declare all scripture as fulfilled.. Which is essentially denying the truth of it pertaining to the future..

Exactly what the rulers of this dark world would have all men believe.. That it's all about the past..

 

[parousia70]

Sadly many can only see the past.. and must declare all scripture as fulfilled..

Nowhere have i said all scripture is fulfilled. you must be thinking of someone else.

Exactly what the rulers of this dark world would have all men believe.. That it's all about the past..

And I would say the Dark forces perfer there be yet another duped generation of Christians shouting "the sky is falling, the sky is falling - the end is near the end is near".... only to have it come and go without fruition as every generation prior..... as it only serves to shore up the Atheists who point to what they believe are Christianity's Failed prophesies.... Failed Futurism makes a mockery of Christianity in the eyes of the unbelieving world, and Satan LOVES IT!

Satan LOVES it when Futurists are proven wrong in their futurism time and again.... thankfully it is the preterists who have the ONLY Biblically sound argument against those such claims of those dark forces.

 

[Old Timer]

Isn't it sad that many professing believers today can't even admit that this is future..?

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand,

Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Sad indeed..

That won't stop it from happening in That Day, the Day of The Lord, the Day of Jesus Christ.

 

[Old Timer]

It shows how deceptive the rulers of this dark world are..,

And how they can get men to deny the simple truth and also have them feel as if they are the only ones who have it right..

At the same time..

 

[parousia70]

It shows how deceptive the rulers of this dark world are..,

And how they can get men to deny the simple truth and also have them feel as if they are the only ones who have it right..

At the same time..

Men are perfectly capable of such arrogance all on their own. They don't require any deceptive influence from any "dark rulers".

 

[Old Timer]

Men are perfectly capable of such arrogance all on their own. They don't require any deceptive influence from any "dark rulers".

I agree that in some cases the rulers don't need to do very much at all.

 

[parousia70]

I agree that in some cases the rulers don't need to do very much at all.

How blessed are we that we can come to such an agreement!

 

[Old Timer]

Well I'm touched that you can agree that in many cases the rulers of the darkness don't need to do much at all to get men to deny the truth.

You're a perfect case in point..

 

[Bible2]

ebedmelech said in post 27:

Now...to the point of many days of the Lord, you already know there have been because I've given you the passages before. You ignore them for some reason...however lets just show when God spoke through Isaih on "the day of the Lord" that came to Babylon...Isaiah 13:1-6:
The oracle concerning Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw.2 Lift up a standard on the bare hill, Raise your voice to them, Wave the hand that they may enter the doors of the nobles.
3 I have commanded My consecrated ones, I have even called My mighty warriors, My proudly exulting ones, To execute My anger.
4 A sound of tumult on the mountains, Like that of many people!
A sound of the uproar of kingdoms, Of nations gathered together!
The Lord of hosts is mustering the army for battle.
5 They are coming from a far country, From the farthest horizons,
The Lord and His instruments of indignation, To destroy the whole land.
6 Wail, for the day of the Lord is near! It will come as destruction from the Almighty.

Isaiah 13
1 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.
2 Lift ye up a banner upon the high mountain, exalt the voice unto them, shake the hand, that they may go into the gates of the nobles.
3 I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness.
4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.
5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.
6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.
15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.
16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

In Isaiah 13:1, "Babylon" isn't the ancient city of Babylon, but the present-day city of Babylon (in Iraq), which the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will transform into his world capital during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

In Isaiah 13:3, the "sanctified ones" who "rejoice in [YHWH's] highness" are the obedient people in the church in Revelation 19:7-8, after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be, in Isaiah 13:4-5, the "host of the battle" from "heaven", when they physically descend from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus as he wages war against the world's armies at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:14-21). So in Isaiah 13:6,9, the "day of the Lord" is the same as the future, 2nd-coming day of the Lord (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

Isaiah 13:10 refers to the same future, 2nd-coming time as Matthew 24:29-31.

Isaiah 13:11 refers to Jesus' defeat of the world's armies at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Isaiah 13:16 refers not to what Jesus or the church will do, but to what some unsaved "Medes" (Isaiah 13:17-18) will do to the inhabitants of the city of Babylon at the time of Jesus' 2nd coming. By "Medes" is meant the native inhabitants of that part of the Middle East that in ancient times was called "Media" and is now part of Iraq.

ebedmelech said in post 27:

Now...who did it come by? Well...just to make the point, Isaiah 13:17 tells us God used the Medes to judge them:
17 Behold, I am going to stir up the Medes against them, Who will not value silver or take pleasure in gold.

Isaiah 13
17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.
18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.
19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.
21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.
22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.

In Isaiah 13:17, the "Medes" aren't the ancient Medes that conquered the ancient city of Babylon (Daniel 5:28,31). For the ancient Medes didn't make the ancient city of Babylon uninhabited (Isaiah 13:19-22) when they defeated it, but instead kept it as a thriving city which continued on for centuries.

In Isaiah 13:19-22, the total and eternal destruction of the city of Babylon has never been fulfilled. For Saddam Hussein rebuilt the city of Babylon (using bricks he inscribed with "built by Saddam Hussein, son of Nebuchadnezzar"). And after his defeat, U.S. forces built a military base in Babylon. And in the future, the Antichrist will transform the city of Babylon into his world capital. Isaiah 13:19-22 won't be fulfilled until this city is destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming.

ebedmelech said in post 27:

Also of note is the fact that Jesus quoted from Isaiah 13:10 at Matthew 24:29 so the disciples He was speaking to, would have a clue.

Matthew 24:29 can refer to literal clouds blocking the literal light from the literal sun and moon. And it can refer to what we still today call "falling stars": meteors, but ones which will also be meteorites, i.e. ones which will pass through the clouds and will be seen before they land on the earth. So "heaven" in Matthew 24:29-31 can simply refer to the first heaven, the sky/atmosphere. And "the powers of the heavens" which will be shaken can refer to the literal fallen-angelic "powers" that currently rule the unsaved world from high above the earth (Ephesians 6:12, Ephesians 2:2).

Matthew 24:30 refers to Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming, when he himself will appear in the clouds: "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30). And this won't occur until immediately after the never-fulfilled tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Matthew 24:30 will occur at the same time as the never-fulfilled Matthew 24:29 and Matthew 24:31.

 

[Bible2]

Old Timer said in post 37:

Who might want us to believe that That Day has already come?

Why would the Apostle to the Gentiles warn the church about those who do say that it has come?

2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 is most often referred to in order to refute the mistaken idea of an imminent pre-tribulation coming of Jesus and rapture (gathering together) of the church, which won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-21). But the apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 wasn't so much countering pre-tribulation rapturism as he was countering full preterism. Full preterism mistakenly says the day of the Lord/Christ is already at hand (2 Thessalonians 2:2) in the sense of already present, that the 2nd coming and rapture have already occurred (2 Thessalonians 2:1-2), that the resurrection of the church is already a present reality (2 Timothy 2:18). Paul was careful to counter full preterism, for it can trouble (2 Thessalonians 2:2) and even overthrow the faith of some believers (2 Timothy 2:18). It can cause them to lose the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

--

Preterism (whether full or partial), as well as historicism (in its various modern forms), and pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, could all be animated by the same spirit of fear: that the church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For these 5 views of preterism, historicism, pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the church alive today that it won't have to physically suffer through that tribulation.

Preterism says the tribulation happened in 70 AD (or a few years before and including 70 AD). Historicism says it happened over a long period in history (e.g. during the rise and height of the RCC's power in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after). Pre-tribulation rapturism says Jesus will return and rapture the church into the 3rd heaven before the tribulation begins. Symbolicism says the tribulation is only symbolic of theological themes which those in the church have always had to struggle with (e.g. Matthew 6:24), and is symbolic of only-local physical persecutions which some in the church have always had to face, and are still facing today in some places. And spiritualism says the tribulation is only spiritual events which go on only within the hearts of individuals.

But when the almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 begins in our future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these 5 views have each tried to build up between the church and the tribulation, will be completely shattered (Ezekiel 13:10-12) as the church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-31, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). These 5 views may have left some in the church unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these 5 views could even contribute to some in the church ultimately losing their salvation because of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12) during the tribulation, when they become "offended" that God is making them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-12, Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22, Luke 8:13).

Even though the church today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the tribulation, the church need not fear this (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13, Revelation 2:10). For even though many in the church will suffer and die during that time (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), this will be to their gain, as it will bring their souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8; see also 2 Corinthians 4:17-18; 2 Timothy 2:12), and it won't rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

*******

Old Timer said in post 38:

Once again, the rulers of the darkness of this world hate Jerusalem with a passion.. For it is the city of the great King..

Indeed.

God still has regard for the land of Israel (Deuteronomy 32:43,49b), and Jerusalem especially (Isaiah 62:6-7, Psalms 122:6). Even during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5-18), Jerusalem will still be considered by God to be the holy city (Revelation 11:2, Luke 21:24), the holy mountain (Daniel 11:45, Daniel 9:16). And after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming, it will be to the Mount of Olives just east of the walled Old City of Jerusalem that Jesus will descend (Zechariah 14:4-21, Acts 1:11-12). And then Jesus will rule the whole earth from the earthly Jerusalem during the millennium (Micah 4:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-21, Revelation 20:4-6).

And if even those who are "strangers" in Israel can inherit the land of Israel (Ezekiel 47:21-23), then certainly believing Gentiles, who are "no more strangers" to Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19), will inherit the land of Israel during the future millennium of Revelation 20:4-6. And they will inherit the land and all the other promises given to Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Ephesians 3:6, Galatians 3:29, Genesis 12:7) along with all the elect Jews who have ever been saved in the past or who will get saved in our future, including at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:25-32).

 

[Bible2]

shturt678s said in post 39:

Off the top, the 'day of the Lord' = / = the "1" forthcoming 'Parousia'

That's right, in that the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

[Bible2]

parousia70 said in post 52:

Almost forgot... here is another proclamation of a past day of the lord:

Revelation 1:10
I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,

Revelation 1:10 means John the apostle was in the Spirit on the 1st day of the week, what's now commonly called Sunday. For after the Lord rose from the dead on the first day of the week (Mark 16:9), the early church referred to the 1st day of the week as the Lord's day: "no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him" (The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians, chapter 9. Ignatius was a contemporary of John).

So Revelation 1:10 is speaking of Sunday: John was in the Spirit on a Sunday in the 1st century AD when he heard behind him a great voice.

 

[shturt678s]

That's right, in that the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10),

which won't occur until Revelation 19:7

Rev.19:7 Betrothal part, ie, the "1" ending of the world following the betrothal at the "1" Parousia at Rev.19:11-21.

to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation

Rev.20:6 All souls from Adam forward are transferred to either heaven or hell upon each passing to await their new bodies at the forthcoming "1" Parousia.

chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Rev.6 non-miraculous preliminary judgments which parallel the miraculous preliminary judgments of Rev. chapters 8 & especially 9 in our time.

There are "7" one Parousias in Revelation = "1" ending of world unveiled seven times thus Revelation is to be viewed synchronous. No "Rapture"

Old Jack

 

[ebedmelech]

Isaiah 13
1 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.
2 Lift ye up a banner upon the high mountain, exalt the voice unto them, shake the hand, that they may go into the gates of the nobles.
3 I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness.
4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.
5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.
6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.
15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.
16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

In Isaiah 13:1, "Babylon" isn't the ancient city of Babylon, but the present-day city of Babylon (in Iraq), which the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will transform into his world capital during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

In Isaiah 13:3, the "sanctified ones" who "rejoice in [YHWH's] highness" are the obedient people in the church in Revelation 19:7-8, after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be, in Isaiah 13:4-5, the "host of the battle" from "heaven", when they physically descend from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus as he wages war against the world's armies at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:14-21). So in Isaiah 13:6,9, the "day of the Lord" is the same as the future, 2nd-coming day of the Lord (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

Isaiah 13:10 refers to the same future, 2nd-coming time as Matthew 24:29-31.

Isaiah 13:11 refers to Jesus' defeat of the world's armies at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Isaiah 13:16 refers not to what Jesus or the church will do, but to what some unsaved "Medes" (Isaiah 13:17-18) will do to the inhabitants of the city of Babylon at the time of Jesus' 2nd coming. By "Medes" is meant the native inhabitants of that part of the Middle East that in ancient times was called "Media" and is now part of Iraq.



Isaiah 13
17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.
18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.
19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.
21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.
22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.

In Isaiah 13:17, the "Medes" aren't the ancient Medes that conquered the ancient city of Babylon (Daniel 5:28,31). For the ancient Medes didn't make the ancient city of Babylon uninhabited (Isaiah 13:19-22) when they defeated it, but instead kept it as a thriving city which continued on for centuries.

In Isaiah 13:19-22, the total and eternal destruction of the city of Babylon has never been fulfilled. For Saddam Hussein rebuilt the city of Babylon (using bricks he inscribed with "built by Saddam Hussein, son of Nebuchadnezzar"). And after his defeat, U.S. forces built a military base in Babylon. And in the future, the Antichrist will transform the city of Babylon into his world capital. Isaiah 13:19-22 won't be fulfilled until this city is destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming.



Matthew 24:29 can refer to literal clouds blocking the literal light from the literal sun and moon. And it can refer to what we still today call "falling stars": meteors, but ones which will also be meteorites, i.e. ones which will pass through the clouds and will be seen before they land on the earth. So "heaven" in Matthew 24:29-31 can simply refer to the first heaven, the sky/atmosphere. And "the powers of the heavens" which will be shaken can refer to the literal fallen-angelic "powers" that currently rule the unsaved world from high above the earth (Ephesians 6:12, Ephesians 2:2).

Matthew 24:30 refers to Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming, when he himself will appear in the clouds: "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30). And this won't occur until immediately after the never-fulfilled tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Matthew 24:30 will occur at the same time as the never-fulfilled Matthew 24:29 and Matthew 24:31.

Pretty wrong Bible2!!! Look at Isaiah 13:17:
17 Behold, I am going to stir up the Medes against them, Who will not value silver or take pleasure in gold.

Do you see the MEDES there? Did the Medes not conquer Babylon when Belshazzar defiled the temple vessels?

So stop moving this future, because IT HAPPENED!!! Babylon was the "head of gold" in as Daniel described him.

You do well to let the prophets interpret what they say because Jeremiah confirmed this...Jeremiah 51:11:
Sharpen the arrows, fill the quivers! The Lord has aroused the spirit of the kings of the Medes, Because His purpose is against Babylon to destroy it; For it is the vengeance of the Lord, vengeance for His temple.

Now what???

You need to understand...for instance, when Revelation 14:8 says "Babylon is fallen", it quotes Isaiah 21:9 and Jeremiah 51:8. You go read those and correlate them because your looking at a "type" become the "antitype".

Work with that.

 

[shturt678s]

Pretty wrong Bible2!!! Look at Isaiah 13:17:
17 Behold, I am going to stir up the Medes against them, Who will not value silver or take pleasure in gold.

Do you see the MEDES there? Did the Medes not conquer Babylon when Belshazzar defiled the temple vessels?

So stop moving this future, because IT HAPPENED!!! Babylon was the "head of gold" in as Daniel described him.

You do well to let the prophets interpret what they say because Jeremiah confirmed this...Jeremiah 51:11:
Sharpen the arrows, fill the quivers! The Lord has aroused the spirit of the kings of the Medes, Because His purpose is against Babylon to destroy it; For it is the vengeance of the Lord, vengeance for His temple.

Now what???

You need to understand...for instance, when Revelation 14:8 says "Babylon is fallen", it quotes Isaiah 21:9 and Jeremiah 51:8. You go read those and correlate them because your looking at a "type" become the "antitype".

Work with that.

Rev.14:8, "There fell Babylon the Great," Not so much of a quote, however John does employ the langauge of Isa.21:9 (compare 51:7-10 of course).

Excellent example of a prophecy that speaks of a future event as of something that is already irrevocalby in the past.

We will have to agree to disagree regarding all those who do constitute "Babylon," eg, earth dwellers of Rev.13:8, etc. :o

Thank you again,

Old Jack

 

[Bible2]

shturt678s said in post 77:

There are "7" one Parousias in Revelation = "1" ending of world unveiled seven times thus Revelation is to be viewed synchronous.

Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are chronological insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21) and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3) and reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected or changed church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

shturt678s said in post 77:

No "Rapture"

The English word "rapture" is derived from the root of the Latin word "rapiemur", which is how the old Latin (Vulgate) translation of the Bible translated the original Greek word (harpazo) translated as "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. So the "rapture" is the church's being "caught up together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which is the same as the church's being "gathered together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Christians need to be wary of the mistaken idea no rapture will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming. For such an idea could be employed in the future by the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20, Revelation 13:13-15) to fool some Christians into thinking Jesus' 2nd coming has happened (Matthew 24:23-26) without Jesus having to have raptured (caught up together/gathered together) the church to hold a meeting in the sky with him at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3).