A flat earth, and Noah's Ark.

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm sorry, you just don't understand what they are suggesting as a flat earth model. You are trapped inside the box of the constraints of globe earth thinking.

On the flat earth model, if you got in a plane in, say, New York. You take off and fly east. You keep the north to the left side of the plane. You fly and fly and fly and you come back to New York.

I cannot help you. If you believe that you cannot "fly around" a flat earth model... I cannot help you. You cannot wrap your head around an alternate concept.

Like I said, this would work in a ring world concept, but it would not work with a flat disk type world. Do you believe the world is a flat disk? Or do you believe the world is more like a flat ring world? Do you believe the compass changes as you travel from West to East (with the North being on your left side the whole time)?

Take out a flat piece of paper and cut out a circle. If you draw a straight line on the top of the surface of the paper, you will go off the piece of paper (that is shaped like a circle). Unless of course you were to tape both ends of a square flat piece of paper and make a flat ring out of it. Then you can draw a line that would go from one end with it meeting again.

In other words, explain to me how your theory works with a piece of paper or smaller model (that is a particular shape of something that I could recognize).


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[JacksBratt]

Personally I think this entire debate is senseless. First of all I think the ark story is a myth for a few reasons, the main one being.

An ark containing two of all living creatures is a physical impossibility. Noah's ark was 300 cubits by 50 cubits by 30 cubits in size per Genesis 6:15. A cubit was approximately 18 inches, yielding a volume (if perfectly rectangular, the most voluminous possible shape of three unequal dimensions) of 1,518,750 cubic feet. However that is not how a boat of that size would have been built.
Into this volume, Noah supposedly fit two of each of the 22,100 species of animals on Earth plus the food to keep all of them alive for a month. But it would be impossible to fit such a tremendous number of animals and food in such a relatively tiny volume of that dimension. Of course I'm not a bible literalist.

As for a flat earth, that doesn't even deserve a comment.

Firstly, they were on the ark for one whole year.
Secondly, he didn't need all 22,100 species of animals (doesn't that number seem low ).
Thirdly, if you cannot believe this bible story, or the creation story.. how do you believe the Exodus stories, Jericho, God stopping the sun, Elijah and Mound Carmel, Daniel and the den of Lions, Shaddrach Meshach and Abednigo in the fiery furnace and Samson.
Fourth, If you cannot believe any of this..... why do you believe any of the Bible. Why do you only believe the part that says you are saved from hell and have everlasting life. Why do you believe there even is a Hell, a heaven?
Fifth, If any and/or all of these are true and Christ is real.... Then, why can't the ark be real.

Yes, the flat earth is a stretch. However, there are some real good questions out there that I have to find answers for.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

I didn't say you couldn't go there under a guided tour or travel planner.....a supervised trip.... Nope, that is still available.

I said, you cannot get in your boat, ship, yacht with a bunch of buddies and sail your butt down there.... You can do that any other place in the world but you can not have an unsupervised, invalidated, non permission personal trip below the 60th parallel.

You will be arrested.

Even if that were true, which it is not, by the way, if you travel between any two random points in the Southern Hemisphere in the time predicted by a spherical Earth, you validate the theory.

If there were no travel below the equator, you could argue for a hemispherical earth, but there is such travel.

 

[JacksBratt]

Like I said, this would work in a ring world concept, but it would not work with a flat disk type world. Do you believe the world is a flat disk? Or do you believe the world is more like a flat ring world? Do you believe the compass changes as you travel from West to East (with the North being on your left side the whole time)?

Take out a flat piece of paper and cut out a circle. If you draw a straight line on the top of the surface of the paper, you will go off the piece of paper (that is shaped like a circle). Unless of course you were to tape both ends of the flat piece of paper and make a flat ring out of it. Then you can draw a line that would go from one end with it meeting again.


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OK, I'll try once more.

If you cut out a circle on a piece of paper. Put a pin in the very center... that's the north pole.
Now, cut out a little airplane.
Tie a string to the pin at the north pole.
Tie the other end to the tip of a wing on your airplane.
Now, your little airplane can stay at the end of the string with it's wing pointing continually at the north pole and fly round and round and round and round.
Always facing east (or west).

Ca-piece?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Personally I think this entire debate is senseless. First of all I think the ark story is a myth for a few reasons, the main one being.

An ark containing two of all living creatures is a physical impossibility. Noah's ark was 300 cubits by 50 cubits by 30 cubits in size per Genesis 6:15. A cubit was approximately 18 inches, yielding a volume (if perfectly rectangular, the most voluminous possible shape of three unequal dimensions) of 1,518,750 cubic feet. However that is not how a boat of that size would have been built.
Into this volume, Noah supposedly fit two of each of the 22,100 species of animals on Earth plus the food to keep all of them alive for a month. But it would be impossible to fit such a tremendous number of animals and food in such a relatively tiny volume of that dimension. Of course I'm not a bible literalist.

As for a flat earth, that doesn't even deserve a comment.

Many people claim that the story of Noah's Ark could not be true because there was not enough space to house millions of animal species that exist today. However, if they were to take a closer look at the different categories of animals that live today, they would see that it would be thousands of animals on the Ark and not millions.

Here is a breakdown of the different categories of animals that thrive currently.

Mammals.......5,490
Birds...............9,998
Reptiles..........9,084
Amphibians....6,433 (Some of which can survive in open water)

Fishes: - Not applicable (They live in water) and are not regarded as flesh.

Insects, Worms, and Spiders: - Not applicable, their size is exceptionally small.

Which is about 62,000 if you were to take two of each species.

Now, if you were to count the dinosaur fossils found. you are looking at about approximately 700 known discoveries. Which would be about 1400 dinosaurs when you count two of each again.

Therefore, this brings our total up to about 63,400. The real bulk of these animals on the ship would be mammals and dinosaurs of course (even if they were young (smaller than the adult size)). Which would be about 12,380 considerable sized animals that the Ark had to hold when counting two of each.

Actually, most animals are not very large (especially if they were younger), so if we surmise that the average size of all animals is the size of a sheep and one railroad stock car can carry about 240 sheep, then we could fit 40,000 animals in as few as 167 railway cars. As the Ark's total capacity was 570 box cars, then 40,000 animals would require less than 30% of the Ark's space. In other words all the animals could fit on just one of the Ark's three decks which would leave the other 70% of the ark's space free for animal supplies, Noah's family, food, and any personal belongings which may have needed to be carried.

You also have to note that there was a smaller amount of certain species (different types within a kind) back in Noah's time, too. In other words, there was not 356 species of hummingbirds on-board the Ark (like there is today). It was probably more like 12-35 different types of prime hummingbirds species on board the Ark.

Most people conclude that it was millions of animals on the Ark because they did not look at the scripture verses that regard what types of living things were on-board the Ark. Obviously a Global Flood is not going to kill marine life, and there is no such verse that supports such a view. As for the millions of insects, it was probably more like thousands of insects on board the Ark seeing these insects must have cross breaded and created more breeds (different types) of insects that we see today. So yes. It was thousands of animals or terrestrial creatures on-board the Ark, not millions.


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[Paul Yohannan]

Ask yourself this.... If "jacksbratt" is getting this much opostion on a "mean nothing" Christian debate forum.. and others on other sites and in other circles are getting much worse flack....

Can you imagine, working for American Airlines, Delta Air, British airways........or what ever. A dream job. Good money...and you go public and say.. "ya, when flying around the globe, I noticed that it cannot be a globe.....

How long would you have a job, career, life?

The problem with an airline employing a flat earth believer as a dispatcher, navigator, route planner, etc (of these, only dispatchers are used now, but in the past, navigators, and earlier still, trailblazing aviators such as Howard Hughes were vitally important), is that if one worked from a Flat Earth model, one would miscalculate the shortest possible route between two points and thus contribute to the wasting of fuel and time and/or crashes.

The correct answer for navigational decisions is different with a spherical Earth vs. a discoid one. For example, the Great Circle Route would be unusable in the Southern Hemisphere.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

OK, I'll try once more.

If you cut out a circle on a piece of paper. Put a pin in the very center... that's the north pole.
Now, cut out a little airplane.
Tie a string to the pin at the north pole.
Tie the other end to the tip of a wing on your airplane.
Now, your little airplane can stay at the end of the string with it's wing pointing continually at the north pole and fly round and round and round and round.
Always facing east (or west).

Ca-piece?

If the plane were to fly a straight line, it would return to the same spot in which it came from creating a ring pattern around the sphere of the Earth. This is not possible with a flat disk type world. If your plane is to go straight, it will fly off the edge of the world (unless it is a ring world - not counting the plane being able to fly off the sides of course). Please describe to me what type of world you are talking about. Do you believe in a Ring World or do you believe in a Flat Disk Type World?


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[JackRT]

Wasn't there a pair of every unclean animal but seven pairs of every clean animal?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

...

Do you not think that the number of animals I provided was not correct?
Google it for yourself in how many species exist today within the different animal categories. Also, it is not unreasonable that the younger species of the bigger animals would be on board and not the older ones.


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[Paul Yohannan]

OK, I'll try once more.

If you cut out a circle on a piece of paper. Put a pin in the very center... that's the north pole.
Now, cut out a little airplane.
Tie a string to the pin at the north pole.
Tie the other end to the tip of a wing on your airplane.
Now, your little airplane can stay at the end of the string with it's wing pointing continually at the north pole and fly round and round and round and round.
Always facing east (or west).

Ca-piece?

No, because in your model, the aircraft would have to have one wing banked towards the North Pole and thus be in a constant turn, which is not the case.

If you travel between any two points on a curved parallel in the Northern Hemisphere on a discoid earth model without turning, or between any two points in a straight parallel with turning, this proves that model false.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Wasn't there a pair of every unclean animal but seven pairs of every clean animal?

Ah, yes. I did not add that to my calculation. But there is still enough room onboard the Ark. Only 30% of the Ark was filled with the current calculation. So there is plenty of room. Especially seeing there is more than likely 1 or (a lower number) of prime dogs than all the dog species we have today (Just like with the rest of the animal species).


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[Paul Yohannan]

Do you not think that the number of animals I provided was not correct?
Google it for yourself in how many species exist today within the different animal categories. Also, it is not unreasonable that the younger species of the bigger animals would be on board and not the older ones.


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No, rather, I think the idea of Noah and Sons wrangling dinosaurs is hilarious. "Don't bite off Shem's arm! Bad T-Rex!"

 

[JacksBratt]

If the plane were to fly a straight line, it would return to the same spot in which it came from creating a ring pattern around the sphere of the Earth. This is not possible with a flat disk type world. If your plane is to go straight, it will fly off the edge of the world (unless it is a ring world - not counting the plane being able to fly off the sides of course). Please describe to me what type of world you are talking about. Do you believe in a Ring World or do you believe in a Flat Disk Type World?


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Sorry Jason, I really tried.
I do like your ring world theory though. Even though I believe the globe earth model right now.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sorry Jason, I really tried.
I do like your ring world theory though. Even though I believe the globe earth model right now.

It's not my theory. It's Larry Niven's idea as a part of his fiction novels; And I doubted he believed the Earth was flat.

Again, if your theory is true then you wouldn't give up. You should be able to prove it easily using a piece of paper. If you draw a straight line on the paper you are going to run off the piece of paper. If a plane travels a straight line it will return to the same point in a ring pattern on a sphere Earth. But if it is a flat disk type Earth, the pilot woud recognize if he was turning ever so slightly so as to make a circle pattern in order to stay on the flat disk. Tell, me, what prevents the pilot from flying off the flat disk? Have pilots seen the edges of the world? Surely there would be an edge or end to your world, right? Is there not a fall off point?


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[Bible Highlighter]

No, rather, I think the idea of Noah and Sons wrangling dinosaurs is hilarious. "Don't bite off Shem's arm! Bad T-Rex!"

Sigh. There is so much disinformation on Noah's Ark that nobody knows what to believe anymore. I watched two Noah movies (Noah 2014 and The Ark 2015) in the past few years and they gotten so many things wrong in God's Word. Anyways, the Scriptures say,

"... two of every sort shall come unto thee, ..." (Genesis 6:20).

In other words, the animals CAME to Noah. Noah did not have to go hunting for them. They all came to Noah and entered the Ark.

So if the animals were coming forward to Noah under the direction of God, that means they were behaving themselves under the direction of God, too.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Also, I was trying to find a list of clean animals. I did not find that large of a list. So at most, it was a smaller amount of these animals being 14 for each (i.e. being 2 pairs of seven).

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[Goatee]

Dinosaurs went extinct millions of years ago!

 

[Kenneth Redden]

I'd really like to see the edge of the earth...whats there?...big water fall or a wall of granite?...anyone seen it? How come this wasnt in my textbooks? How can I travel there?

Thank you, Zoii. But I am referring to the earth before the fourth day of the creation in Genesis 1. My point being that because the stars had yet to be made, the earth wouldn't have had to be a, "planet." As a matter of fact, this concept of a flat earth could not have even existed before the earth was made beneath the stars. All that was necessary then was the ground and the sky. The condition is irrelevant.

 

[Goatee]

Thank you, Zoii. But I am referring to the earth before the fourth day of the creation in Genesis 1. My point being that because the stars had yet to be made, the earth wouldn't have had to be a, "planet." As a matter of fact, this concept of a flat earth could not have even existed before the earth was made beneath the stars. All that was necessary then was the ground and the sky. The condition is irrelevant.

I think that some people take Genesis too literally myself.

 

[JacksBratt]

Dinosaurs went extinct millions of years ago!

Dinosaurs were on the ark. They are mentioned in Job.


So, unless man was around millions of years ago and was able to write and we have record of these writings today....

Unless you can tell me what other animal, besides a brontosaurus, that can be described as:

Job 40:15-18King James Version (KJV)

15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.


16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.


17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.


18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.