A closer look at "Predestination"

[imperfectchristian]

“But when God is said ‘to cleanse his church’ from all sin, to promise the grace of deliverance in baptism, and to fulfil it in his elect, - we refer these phrases rather to the guilt of sin, than to the existence of sin.”

“The other thing to be remarked is, that this depravity never ceases in us, but is perpetually producing new fruits – those works of the flesh which we have already described, like the emission of flames and sparks from a heated furnace, or like the streams of water form an unfailing spring. For concupiscence never dies, nor is altogether extinguished in men, till by death they are delivered from the body of death, and entirely divested of themselves.”

IMO, sanctification is an ongoing process that will not be complete until we arrive in heaven.

1 John 1:8-10

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

1 Corinthians 15:53

For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

 

[romans6and6]

IMO, sanctification is an ongoing process that will not be complete until we arrive in heaven.

1 John 1:8-10

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

1 Corinthians 15:53

For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

Sorry for the duplicates. My computer is acting up.

Calvin says that conspicience is "perpetually producing new fruits" within the child of God.

But Paul lists conspicience as a "work of the flesh" and a "fruit unto death" and says that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Conspicience is a longing and a lusting for that which is forbidden. A child of God does not have conspicience working on the inside of him.

A child of God possesses the fruit of the spirit and grows in the fruit of the spirit and in the grace of God, but he does not commit the works of the flesh and the fruit unto death.

He does not grow from righteousness into holiness over a period of years as is taught in progressive santification. He is made holy and sanctified in the blood of the Cross of Christ and then grows in grace and in the fruit of the spirit.

The purpose of Calvary was to destroy the sin nature within the heart of man, to make us new creations in Christ, to wash us from our sin, to sanctify His people with His own blood (Hebrews 13:12), to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9), to redeem us from all iniquity and puify unto Himself His own special possession. (Titus 2:14)

The body is not evil. It is perishable only in the sense that it still gets old and it still dies. Death is the final victory that Christ will give us when He shall give us an immortal body like unto His. Presently, the body can only do what the man on the inside tells it what to do. Jesus taught that sin comes from the heart of man, and not from his body. If the inner man is holy, then so are the members of his body holy and "members of righteousness." The temple of God is holy. The body is just the earthly tabernacle for the spirit man to dwell in.

The early Gnostics taught, however, that the spirit man could be holy, and that the body was still evil. This was passed on through the ages and also taught by John Calvin and many of the Reformation. And this thinking of the "sinning Christian" has thus been passed on to us today.

 

[Cassidy]

But the bible still says that we all sin and fall short of the glory of God. It also says that anyone who says they do not sin is a liar and the truth is not in him.

It does also say in 1 John that we will not CONTINUE in sin but we still do sin.

I'm not sure if you were saying that we don't sin because the sin comes from the heart which is regenerated but that's what it sounds like. Even Paul in Romans 7 expresses his anguish of him doing what he does not want to do.

 

[romans6and6]

But the bible still says that we all sin and fall short of the glory of God. It also says that anyone who says they do not sin is a liar and the truth is not in him.

It does also say in 1 John that we will not CONTINUE in sin but we still do sin.

I'm not sure if you were saying that we don't sin because the sin comes from the heart which is regenerated but that's what it sounds like. Even Paul in Romans 7 expresses his anguish of him doing what he does not want to do.

I will quote part of the article entitled "If we say...If we walk" from my website.

There are two keys in understanding the first epistle of John. The first key is, what one says and what one actually does or walks in could be two different things. The second is, many times in the Scriptures, whenever it refers to the one that “says” it is referring to the one who is not saved and to the one who confesses but does not possess or walk in the Light. We have already quoted the example in Ezekiel 33. Here are some other examples:

“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46)

”He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.“ (Mark 7:6)

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many shall say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied [preached] in thy name? And in thy name have we not cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye workers of iniquity [sin].” (Matthew: 7:21-23)

“…and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.” (Revelation 2:9)

“Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie…” (Revelation 3:9)

We also see several examples of unsaved confessors in 1 John:
“If we say we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.” (1John 1:6)

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1John 1:8)

“If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.” (1John 1:10)

“He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1John 2:4)

“He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.” (1John 2:9)

“If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar…” (1John 4:20)

Are we beginning to see a pattern here? In fact, the only Scripture that I can find in the entirety of the Bible that does not have a negative connotation to the “one that says” is in 1John 2:6, and it is an exhortation for those who “say” to walk as He walked – “He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked.”

The Apostle John certainly knew how “He walked.” John begins his epistle talking about the One who was from the beginning. He says that we have “seen with our eyes, and our hands have handled, of the Word of Life.” He says that the Life was manifested unto them, and that now he (John) manifested and showed that Life unto those who would see and hear. He went on to say that the message that we have heard of Him is that “God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all.”

After stating the absolute fact that “God is light and in Him is no darkness at all (1John 1:5),” he follows with several hypothetical statements. He begins each statement with the word “If.” Strong defines “If” as:
“A conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty.”
These hypothetical, conditional statements do not refer to everyone, but only to those who meet the requirements of the statements.


“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1John 1:8)

This verse is referring to those who are sinners who have the Adamic sin nature. It cannot be talking about the saints of God, because the saints of God, as described earlier, are not “saying” but are “walking” in the Light where there is no darkness at all, and are in a state where they are cleansed from all sin. If one is cleansed from all sin, and cleansed from all unrighteousness (vs.9), then he cannot have the Adamic nature of sin in him. In verse 6, we see those who “say” they have fellowship with Him, yet are walking in darkness. They are lying and “do not the truth.” In verse 8, we see those who “say” they have no sin. Some of the people who “say” in verse 8 are the same people who “say” in verse 6. Their lying has caused them to be deceived.

Both Paul and John warned the believers not to be deceived as concerning sin. Paul, while listing the “works of the flesh” in Ephesians 5, gives a warning in verse 6:

“Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.”

Also, before listing the works of the flesh in 1 Corinthians 6:9, he makes this statement:

“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived…”

The Apostle John also warns in 1John 3:7:

“Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous.”

In fact, the Apostle John in 1John 3:4-10 uses some of the strongest language in the entirety of the New Testament as concerning sin, and he leaves no doubt that the child of God is not a sinner. In these verses, he is not using the word “if” and giving hypothetical “if we say” situations. He is making declarative, absolute statements.​

He says:
Whosoever commits sin transgresses the law.
He was manifested to take away our sin.
In Him is no sin.
Whosoever abides in Him does not sin.
He that does righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous.
He that commits sin is of the devil.
The purpose of Jesus’ manifested life and death was to destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin because...
His seed [the redeemed] remains in Him [Christ] and they cannot sin because they are born of God.
Whosoever does not righteousness is not of God.

How much clearer can the Apostle John be as pertaining to sin and righteousness? Do not let the “sinning Christian” theologians and ministers deceive you. As Paul and John warned – Let no man deceive.

Note: In light of John’s emphatic declarations about sin and righteousness in 1 John 3:4-10, and also in light of the context of these verses in question in 1John 1, then John could not possibly be referring to the Christian in 1John1:8, because the Christian has no sin in Him. Verse 8 in sandwiched between two verses that say that He cleanses from all sin and from all unrighteousness. If He cleanses from all sin and from all unrighteousness, then there is no sin left. There is no sin nature left which causes him to commit the “works of the flesh.” The believer of the gospel is walking in the Light where there is no darkness at all; he is fellowshipping with the Father and the Son; he has the truth in Him, which is Jesus Christ; and he is not deceived.

Also note that 1John 1:8 begins with the term “If we say,” and as stated earlier, throughout the Scriptures when it refers to those that “say” it is referring to the unsaved.

 

[Cassidy]

First question - How do you know that he is specifically talking about the unsaved in 1 John?

Second - If what you say is true, what say you about Paul's anguish in Romans 7 and then him encouraging to walk in the spirit and not the flesh in Romans 8?

Third - I do believe that spiritually speaking we cannot sin but we are still in our bodies and waiting for our bodies to be redeemed and our spirit groans.

Fourth - If you say that we don't sin - in the fleshly sense, then why is it that we still sin...because we all do.

Fifth - What of the scripture that says that we all sin and fall short of the Glory of God?

Sixth - what's with all the 'warning' scriptures about staying on the paths and keeping away from sin if we don't sin?

Seventh - Is what you mean is that from God's eyes we do not sin (in the flesh) because he doesn't see the sin because of Jesus' covering? Is that what you are meaning? That from God's POV we do not sin?

I think that's all the questions I have.

 

[Strong in Him]

Sorry, but just quoting chunks of Scripture and underlining certain verses does not answer the questions I raised about the nature and character of God.

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

God chose Jacob, and not Esau, to be the father of 12 sons who would be the heads of the tribes of Israel. It had to be someone, and it was Jacob. I don't believe this means that God hated and rejected Esau though; just that he was not chosen for this particular task.
God chose Samuel to be a prophet, David to be a king, Mary to give birth to the Messiah, Paul to preach his word to the gentiles. This does not mean that he rejected, and refused to save, anyone who was not Samuel, or David, or Mary or Paul, or that he loved them any the less; just that they were not chosen for that particular task.

I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Yes - even those who we think don't deserve his mercy and compassion; child abusers, murderers, gays, abortionists or whoever. It does not say that there are some people to whom the Lord will not show any mercy or compassion, or any he will refuse to save. It is not for us to question, or try to dictate, who the Lord shows compassion to.

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

I think we may be surprised sometimes that people we think are a million miles from God, outside his love, will never respond to him etc, will be saved and used by God, whereas those who we might think will be open to the ways of God and "candidates for the kingdom", turn out to stubbornly refuse God, close their ears to his teaching and refuse his love. It doesn't mean that God created them like that, nor that he wants them to be that way.

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

God made us all. He knows the gifts he has given us and the work, or role, to which he has called us. If we confess him as LORD of our lives, then we accept all he has given us, all he wants to do in us and the task to which he has called us. It is not for us to say to our Lord and maker, "what did you make me like this for?" or "why can't I do what SHE is doing?" If he wants to call some of us to be frontline evangelists, preachers, famous authors, prominent Bible scholars, and others to be encouragers, intercessors, behind-the-scenes type people; then that's the ministry and task he has iven us and we should not envy others or covet their ministry.
This does not mean that those who are in the limelight are saved, and the others aren't; nor that the first group are special, saved, more blessed etc. That should be clear from Jesus' teaching, "the first shall be last", "whoever wants to be great, must be the servant of all"; and James' words that the brother in humble circumstances should take pride in his high position (James 1:9)

I cannot believe that God, who created us ALL in his image, and knows that we have ALL sinned and need a Saviour, (I assume you agree that we have ALL sinned?) would say to some that he wasn't going to save them. That he put them on this earth, but it doesn't matter how they live their life, they are destined for hell; that they were born to be rejected and condemned. They might choose to reject God, will end up in hell, and from our point of view it will be a waste, and might even have been better for them had they not been born. But that does not mean that God planned it that way.

Like I said, my earthly father would not have done such a thing - got my mother pregnant and made her have the child knowing full well he was going to disregard, disown and disinherit it. So if he, imperfect as he was, would not have behaved in that way, how can I believe that my perfect heavenly Father, who IS love, would do so? (Luke 11:11-13)

 

[Child-of-Zion]

Calvinism does not make sense unless all 5 TULIP points are valid. Perseverance of the saints is not Scriptural. If you do a study on this you'll find that there are at least 50 or 60 different verses that specifically warn about falling away from the faith. I suppose that can be made into a separate thread but I don't have the time right now.

Why warn about falling away from the faith unless it is possible to do so?

For example; where are all the warnings to Christians saying we are in danger of going to Purgatory if we aren't careful? (answer: there is no Purgatory, therefore it is not possible to go there)

 

[Cassidy]

Calvinism does not make sense unless all 5 TULIP points are valid. Perseverance of the saints is not Scriptural. If you do a study on this you'll find that there are at least 50 or 60 different verses that specifically warn about falling away from the faith. I suppose that can be made into a separate thread but I don't have the time right now.

Why warn about falling away from the faith unless it is possible to do so?

For example; where are all the warnings to Christians saying we are in danger of going to Purgatory if we aren't careful? (answer: there is no Purgatory, therefore it is not possible to go there)

Why warn about falling away? Because that's one of the ways that God keeps his kids from falling away.

I tell my kids that if they cross the road without looking they may get hit by a car. I'm not lying - if they do that then they will get hit by a car....but.....if I'm a good parent I will teach my kids the dangers.

Teach a child the way in which he should go and when he is grown he will NEVER DEPART FROM IT. You don't think that our Father in heave is capable of teaching us the way we should go?

The warning scriptures do not trump the perserverance scriptures, the warning scriptures harmonise very well with the other.

What you have done is read the perserverance scriptures then the warning scriptures and made out the God contradicts himself - HE DOESN'T! Both sets of scriptures are true and correct. And in my mind, they harmonise together when you add the other side of the argument to the scripture themselves and line them up.

The warning scriptures are one of the ways in which the Lord guides and keeps us from falling! If he didn't warn and discipline us then he wouldn't be a good father.

 

[Child-of-Zion]

Why warn about falling away? Because that's one of the ways that God keeps his kids from falling away.

Again, it makes no sense to warn against something that is not possible.

I tell my kids that if they cross the road without looking they may get hit by a car. I'm not lying - if they do that then they will get hit by a car....but.....if I'm a good parent I will teach my kids the dangers.

This is not a valid analogy. If the kids aren't careful then they will get hit by the car. Calvinism states that man has no control over his own salvation. Children have control over whether or not they step out into the road.

Teach a child the way in which he should go and when he is grown he will NEVER DEPART FROM IT. You don't think that our Father in heave is capable of teaching us the way we should go?

Okay, there's no need to shout here. And the question you're asking does not demand an answer due to its rhetorical nature.

What you have done is read the perserverance scriptures then the warning scriptures and made out the God contradicts himself - HE DOESN'T!

Please chill with the shouting. Obviously I do not agree with the perseverance of the saints interpretation so any response I give would be insufficient for you. What needs to be made is a new thread detailing eternal security a.k.a. perseverance of the saints. I'll make soon, hopefully today.

 

[romans6and6]

First question - How do you know that he is specifically talking about the unsaved in 1 John?

Second - If what you say is true, what say you about Paul's anguish in Romans 7 and then him encouraging to walk in the spirit and not the flesh in Romans 8?

Third - I do believe that spiritually speaking we cannot sin but we are still in our bodies and waiting for our bodies to be redeemed and our spirit groans.

Fourth - If you say that we don't sin - in the fleshly sense, then why is it that we still sin...because we all do.

Fifth - What of the scripture that says that we all sin and fall short of the Glory of God?

Sixth - what's with all the 'warning' scriptures about staying on the paths and keeping away from sin if we don't sin?

Seventh - Is what you mean is that from God's eyes we do not sin (in the flesh) because he doesn't see the sin because of Jesus' covering? Is that what you are meaning? That from God's POV we do not sin?

I think that's all the questions I have.

I can’t do the multiple cut and paste function for some reason, but I will try to answer your questions.

Number one, I believe I explained that those people John was referring to in 1 John 1:8 were not saved. Those whom John was referring to in his epistle were not deceived. They were walking in the Light where there is no darkness at all. They were fellowshipping with the Father and the Son. They were not “saying” as in verse 6, 8 and 10, they were “walking” as in verse 7. As I said, every example that I can find in the Scriptures that are referring to the “one that says,” they are not saved.

John is using the word “if” and making hypothetical conditional statements.

Second, the “Romans 7 experience” is also used by the “sinning Christian” advocates and Calvinists to try to prove that all are sinners. Paul was speaking about the struggle to please God under the law. The struggles of the man in Romans 7 are not the experience of a child of God. A child of God is free from the law of sin and death by the sacrifice of Jesus, as Paul said in Romans 8:

Rom 8:1-9
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

He condemned sin in the flesh in His Cross, so that those who repent and believe the gospel would have the righteousness of the law fulfilled in them by giving them a new heart and a new spirit, which was prophesied in the old covenant and which is fulfilled in Christ Jesus and in those who are in Him.

This also answers another one of your questions about walking in the flesh. The child of God does not move from the flesh to the spirit and back to the flesh and then back to the spirit, as is taught in the modern church. Common thought in the modern church is that a believer of the gospel walks in and out of darkness and light, and continues to commit sin that he needs to repent of. However, the Scriptures clearly bear out that a child of God no longer walks “according to the course of this world.” They have passed from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto the power of God. (Acts 26:18) They are no longer walking in lasciviousness and lusts; they are no longer walking “after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness.” Thus they are no longer “by nature the children of wrath.” They have passed from death unto life by being born again of the Spirit of God. They no longer have the Adamic sin nature. They have put off the “old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts (Ephesians 4:22),” and have “put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness (Ephesians 2:24).”

Paul also declares, after contrasting the “works of the flesh” and the “fruit of the spirit, that, “And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its affections and lusts.” (Galatians 5:24) This is a declarative absolute statement. Those who are of Christ’s (saved) have crucified the flesh with its affections and lusts. They are no longer walking in the state of darkness and sin. They are no longer walking “after the flesh.” They are no longer “walking according to the course of this world.” (Ephesians 2:2) They are “of the spirit.” These are two different states, and not something a Christian continually goes in and out of as is taught in the modern church.

Thirdly, the scripture in Romans 3 saying that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God is talking about everyone that was born into this world. Everyone became a sinner as a result of Adam’s transgression. However, through believing in the obedience of Christ at the cross, many were made righteous. (Romans 5:19)

Your last question is dealing with whether or not I am saying that God does not see our sin because it is covered. No, I am not saying that. God is not blind. He sees all things, even the intents of the heart. If one could live his entire life without committing an outward act of sin, and yet still have sin in his heart, he would still not be saved. As Jesus taught, sin comes out of the heart. If one lusts after another in his heart, he is an adulterer. If one hates in his heart, he is a murderer, as John taught.

A child of God, a brother of Jesus Christ does not lust or hate in his heart and does not commit the works of the flesh. That is what the unrighteous commit, and as Paul said, they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

And your second to last question, yes there are warnings and conditional statements regarding keeping our salvation throughout the Scriptures. We have to remain and abide in Him, and hold fast to the gospel, and continue in the faith if we are to make it to the end.


Col 1:21-23
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

23 IF ye continue in the faith frounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel..."

 

[Cassidy]

Again, it makes no sense to warn against something that is not possible.

But why wouldn't it be possible? BECAUSE of the warnings. That's what they're for. If we are children of God then we will heed the warnings and we will not fall away.

This is not a valid analogy. If the kids aren't careful then they will get hit by the car. Calvinism states that man has no control over his own salvation. Children have control over whether or not they step out into the road.

Teach a child the way in which he shall go and when he is grown he will NEVER depart from it? How is that not valid? If the parent teaches the child properly then the child is NOT going to step out on the road without looking....therefore they won't get hit.

Okay, there's no need to shout here. And the question you're asking does not demand an answer due to its rhetorical nature.[/qutoe]

Wow this is the first time I've been told I'm shouting. I use capitals to hightlight particular words. Sorry if that offends but that's what I do.

And why would it be a rehetorical question? He is our father right? He did advise us to teach a child so they never depart....why wouldn't he take his own advice. Or do you think he teaches us how to parent but then doesn't think that it's good enough teaching for him to do it himself. He promises to keep us...he promises to finish in us what he started in us, how is he able to promise these things then not come through with the promises?

Please chill with the shouting. Obviously I do not agree with the perseverance of the saints interpretation so any response I give would be insufficient for you. What needs to be made is a new thread detailing eternal security a.k.a. perseverance of the saints. I'll make soon, hopefully today.

Wow so you don't think that God is true to his word? OK

 

[Child-of-Zion]

Paul also declares, after contrasting the “works of the flesh” and the “fruit of the spirit, that, “And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its affections and lusts.” (Galatians 5:24) This is a declarative absolute statement. Those who are of Christ’s (saved) have crucified the flesh with its affections and lusts. They are no longer walking in the state of darkness and sin. They are no longer walking “after the flesh.” They are no longer “walking according to the course of this world.” (Ephesians 2:2) They are “of the spirit.” These are two different states, and not something a Christian continually goes in and out of as is taught in the modern church.

I agree, roman6and6. But I would also add to this that there is a difference between having an occasional struggle with sin and living a lifestyle of sin. Would you agree? Also, how would you define being 'in the flesh' and 'in the Spirit'?
Blessings

 

[Child-of-Zion]

Wow so you don't think that God is true to his word? OK

Boy I feel judged.

And yes, there are many people other than myself who consider it rude to use caps to repeatedly emphasize a point.

If you want to have a civil discussion, then please refrain from making statements which assume that I hold no respect for God, nor for His word. Not once have I slandered your character. Please do not slander mine.

 

[ARBITER01]

Calvinism does not make sense unless all 5 TULIP points are valid. Perseverance of the saints is not Scriptural. If you do a study on this you'll find that there are at least 50 or 60 different verses that specifically warn about falling away from the faith. I suppose that can be made into a separate thread but I don't have the time right now.

Why warn about falling away from the faith unless it is possible to do so?

For example; where are all the warnings to Christians saying we are in danger of going to Purgatory if we aren't careful? (answer: there is no Purgatory, therefore it is not possible to go there)

True.

There is the babe in Christ and there is the son of GOD that is led by HIS Spirit. There are those that are "in" Christ and those that have drawn back unto perdition.

The contrasts are there, and they should be evident in our walk with Jesus.

 

[imperfectchristian]

Sorry, but just quoting chunks of Scripture and underlining certain verses does not answer the questions I raised about the nature and character of God.



God chose Jacob, and not Esau, to be the father of 12 sons who would be the heads of the tribes of Israel. It had to be someone, and it was Jacob. I don't believe this means that God hated and rejected Esau though; just that he was not chosen for this particular task.

Look at Esau's descendents and get back to me on that one.

God chose Samuel to be a prophet, David to be a king, Mary to give birth to the Messiah, Paul to preach his word to the gentiles. This does not mean that he rejected, and refused to save, anyone who was not Samuel, or David, or Mary or Paul, or that he loved them any the less; just that they were not chosen for that particular task.

Yes - even those who we think don't deserve his mercy and compassion; child abusers, murderers, gays, abortionists or whoever. It does not say that there are some people to whom the Lord will not show any mercy or compassion, or any he will refuse to save. It is not for us to question, or try to dictate, who the Lord shows compassion to.

I certainly am not trying to dictate anything to God. On the contrary...I realize that we are part of God's creation and God is Lord over His creation. I He chooses to fashion different people for different purposes, who am I to judge God? Also...understand that none of us deserve mercy. In fact the very definition of mercy is not getting what you deserve. If we all burned in hell for all eternity God would still be a righteous and Holy God. We all deserve to burn in hell because we are all sinners period.

I think we may be surprised sometimes that people we think are a million miles from God, outside his love, will never respond to him etc, will be saved and used by God, whereas those who we might think will be open to the ways of God and "candidates for the kingdom", turn out to stubbornly refuse God, close their ears to his teaching and refuse his love. It doesn't mean that God created them like that, nor that he wants them to be that way.

Your right..God did not create Adam a sinful man, but Adam fell and when he fell we all fell. God certainly does not want us to sin, but left to ourselves we will sin everytime because it is our inherited sinful nature. Except God supernaturally intervenes in each of our lives, we can not even choose God.

How many people do you know who have been persecuting Christians and Jesus appeared to them and blinded them and caused them to repent?

What about doubting Thomas...he got the opportunity to thrust his hand in Jesus' side and put his finger through the hole in His hand. How is it fair that God condemns those who do not accept Him in faith to hell when they have not had the same opportunity as Thomas...that is to see and believe?

God made us all. He knows the gifts he has given us and the work, or role, to which he has called us. If we confess him as LORD of our lives, then we accept all he has given us, all he wants to do in us and the task to which he has called us. It is not for us to say to our Lord and maker, "what did you make me like this for?" or "why can't I do what SHE is doing?" If he wants to call some of us to be frontline evangelists, preachers, famous authors, prominent Bible scholars, and others to be encouragers, intercessors, behind-the-scenes type people; then that's the ministry and task he has iven us and we should not envy others or covet their ministry.

This does not mean that those who are in the limelight are saved, and the others aren't; nor that the first group are special, saved, more blessed etc. That should be clear from Jesus' teaching, "the first shall be last", "whoever wants to be great, must be the servant of all"; and James' words that the brother in humble circumstances should take pride in his high position (James 1:9)

I cannot believe that God, who created us ALL in his image, and knows that we have ALL sinned and need a Saviour, (I assume you agree that we have ALL sinned?) would say to some that he wasn't going to save them. That he put them on this earth, but it doesn't matter how they live their life, they are destined for hell; that they were born to be rejected and condemned. They might choose to reject God, will end up in hell, and from our point of view it will be a waste, and might even have been better for them had they not been born. But that does not mean that God planned it that way.

No God did not plan for Adam to sin, but Adam sinned anyway. The point is not that God chooses some people for glory and some to damnation, but that mankind, by default of His own sinful nature chooses hell 100% of the time and that without the supernatural grace of God, none would seek God and all of us would Go to hell.

Sure we have free will, but as a poster mentioned earlier,, our free will is very limited.

Concerning fairness...the OT is full of unfairness. Jesus himself told the Samaritan woman that salvation is of the jews.

Like I said, my earthly father would not have done such a thing - got my mother pregnant and made her have the child knowing full well he was going to disregard, disown and disinherit it. So if he, imperfect as he was, would not have behaved in that way, how can I believe that my perfect heavenly Father, who IS love, would do so? (Luke 11:11-13)

Again God does not disown anyone. We disown God the moment we sin.

He made a way for all of us to be saved, yet without His supernatural empowerment of grace, we would never choose God.

I don't claim to have all the answers, nor am I dogmatic about such issues, but based on my understanding of Scripture I lean more towards double predestination.

Scripture says we chould each be fully convinced in our own heart.


Here is my point...


Romans 9:18-24

18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.


19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

Paul does not argue this from the standpoint of free will, otherwise the answer would be far more simple. You said this passage of Scripture is about God's calling various people to various jobs such as Evangelist yet that does not fit the context, because the question is clearly "why does God blame us?"

20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

I readily admit...the free will concept makes more sense to us. We understand being accountable for our actions. It is ingrained into our society. The reason I do not automatically subscribe to the free will philosophy is not because it is not appealing to my own reasoning, but that it contradicts parts of Scripture.

Clearly verse 22 poses the idea that God might very well be predestinating those He chooses based soley on His own reasons totally apart from any merit of our own....indeed this must have been what Paul related to. He certainly was one of the least deserving of God's supernatural intervention and grace, yet it was poured out on him most abundantly inspite of his evil behaviour of persecuting the church. paul was in a state of total depravity when God choose to move in his life.

At the end of this Paul goes on to say that God's ways are unsearchable and past finding out.

IMO there is truth in both of the concepts surrounding free will and predestination. I think it is healthy to be fluid (as opposed to concrete) on our thinking and conclusions in these areas. Understanding that we do not fully understand.

 

[Cassidy]

Boy I feel judged.

And yes, there are many people other than myself who consider it rude to use caps to repeatedly emphasize a point.

If you want to have a civil discussion, then please refrain from making statements which assume that I hold no respect for God, nor for His word. Not once have I slandered your character. Please do not slander mine.

I apologise. I'm sorry if I offended you, that wasn't my intention.

 

[Strong in Him]

Look at Esau's descendents and get back to me on that one.

Esau is described as being the father of the Edomites. So?
Deut 23:7 says, " do not abhor an Edomite for he is your brother."

Though Edom eventually became part of Assyria, there is no Scripture, as far as I can see, which says that God rejected them, nor that all of them rejected God.

I certainly am not trying to dictate anything to God. On the contrary...I realize that we are part of God's creation and God is Lord over His creation. I He chooses to fashion different people for different purposes, who am I to judge God? Also...understand that none of us deserve mercy. In fact the very definition of mercy is not getting what you deserve. If we all burned in hell for all eternity God would still be a righteous and Holy God. We all deserve to burn in hell because we are all sinners period.

True.

Your right..God did not create Adam a sinful man, but Adam fell and when he fell we all fell. God certainly does not want us to sin, but left to ourselves we will sin everytime because it is our inherited sinful nature. Except God supernaturally intervenes in each of our lives, we can not even choose God.

Maybe, I guess that's the debateable part. If someone walks past a church, is attracted by the singing, goes inside, hears the Gospel and accepts Jesus, did they do that because they were exercising the free will which God gave them, or were they there in that place, at that time and were attracted by the singing only because someone somewhere had been praying, and the Spirit moved and made it happen? That debate seems rather academic really - the important thing is that the person was there, heard the Gospel and accepted Jesus.

What about doubting Thomas...he got the opportunity to thrust his hand in Jesus' side and put his finger through the hole in His hand. How is it fair that God condemns those who do not accept Him in faith to hell when they have not had the same opportunity as Thomas...that is to see and believe?

You've lost me. Thomas physically saw and touched Jesus, and believed. None of us have seen him in the flesh; Jesus said "blessed are those who have not seen me but believe anyway." I do not believe that God will condemn people for having doubts, or find it hard to accept Jesus, or understand the theology of salvation, or whatever. The people who, I believe, go to hell are any who have had the Gospel clearly explained to them, who have had a chance to hear about a God who loves them perfectly, unconditionally, eternally, completely, who has reconciled them to himself and will never let them go; and say "no thanks". And what's more, go on saying "no thanks" for the rest of their human lives. If someone completely and deliberately rejects what God has done for them through Jesus and is not interested in eternal life, when they die, God will respect the choice they made and they will not spend eternity with him. If they don't want to be with him, they don't want to be with him.
But it's their/our choice. If it were not, then God would have made us all robots, unable to sin against him, we would all be perfect, all be saved, and Jesus would not have come.

Sure we have free will, but as a poster mentioned earlier,, our free will is very limited.

Maybe, in which case I've probably misunderstood predestination, because I understood it to teach that we are saved because God chose us to be saved - and in fact it doesn't matter what we do in our lives or when we accept Jesus; we will because God has decided we will.
The 4 alls of Methodism -
All need to be saved
All can be saved
All can know that they are saved
All can be saved to the uttermost

suggests that some people teach that only a few, or a limited number, can be saved. This is what I disagree with. We have all sinned, we all need salvation and God has provided it for everyone. Not all will accept the invitation - and if God hadn't given us free will, then this would not happen, but Christ died for all.

 

[Cassidy]

Hi Strong in Him...

Just want to share a testimony of someone on a parenting site I frequent which really shows the drawing of the Holy spirit to Christ....

I have been at a convention for my business in Sydney for the last 3 days. It was a motivational seminar with a lot of really amazing speakers. One optional part of the convention was a worship session on Sunday morning as a lot of the people who were speaking are Christians. I wasn't going to go as I had flown from Perth to Sydney at 6am Friday morning, been at the convention Friday night, all day Saturday and wanted to sleep in as I got back to the hotel at 2am Sunday morning.
If I didn't go to the worship, I wouldn't have had to be there until 11.30am, as it was the worship started at 9am.

Anyway I woke up on Sunday morning and I just HAD to go to the worship session. I am in no way religious, I have shunned and laughed it off for my entire life. My parents aren't religious, we never went to church but something was telling me I needed to go that morning. So I went.

I was sitting there listening to the speaker talking and there was SOMETHING in that room. Something GOOD. I could feel it. The hairs on my arms were standing up. The more I sat there, the more I felt it. My chest felt like it was going to explode. I could hardly breathe. I felt a warmth like there was someone sitting right there with me, loving me. It was not an emotional reaction to anything the man was saying. I could hear another voice too, someone telling me that I needed to be there for my daughter. There were no other men around me but this was a man's voice.

The speaker asked if there was anyone there who wanted to come down to where he was standing and give their heart to Christ and I don't even know HOW but my hand went up. I didn't even know it was up until I looked up and saw it. I can not explain it.

I went down to the front of the room and prayed with the speaker and the feeling, I just can't explain it. I felt like my heart was going to jump out of my chest even though it wasn't beating fast. I felt like all my questions were being answered. I have been having a bit of a tough time with a lot of things lately (read my diary if you want to know more) and I suppose I have been asking for guidance but more in a way of someone I know, like a counsellor, friend, family to help me but this feelin I had WAS the guidance I was asking for, I just know it. I don't need any more convincing, I have never been more sure of anything in my entire life that this is the answer I needed.

Ok that was long but I want to know if anyone can help me to understand it, if anyone has experienced anything like that? My logical, sceptical mind is looking for a rational explaination but I just don't know if there is one. I also know that if I had have read a post like this even last week I would have thought "what a froot loop" and probably dismissed it but I just know what happened and I am not embarassed to share it. I just know it was all the right thing at the right time and I was meant to be there.

 

[romans6and6]

I agree, roman6and6. But I would also add to this that there is a difference between having an occasional struggle with sin and living a lifestyle of sin. Would you agree? Also, how would you define being 'in the flesh' and 'in the Spirit'?
Blessings

I would define "in the flesh" as in Galatians 5 and in Romans 8:1-9, as the sin nature.

Gal 5:16-25
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulful the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Rom 8:1-9
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

In other Scriptures the flesh may mean the physical body, or simply human reasonings and effort.

Paul contrasts the flesh with the spirit in Galatians and Romans in the above Scriptures and actually connects the flesh with the "works of the flesh" in Galatians. In Romans he states that those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

In Romans he says that the child of God is not in the flesh but in the Spirit because the Spirit of God dwells in them. In Galatians he say that the child of God has crucified the flesh with its affections and lusts.

The flesh in these Scriptures are talking about the sin nature, and this is what was crucified with Christ through the death of His flesh on the cross.

 

[Child-of-Zion]

Right, I know what Scripture says. But in your opinion is 'in the flesh' defined as occasionally struggling with sin or is it a lifestyle of sin? Both? Will a person ever give into a single sin after getting saved or are they sinless from that point on?