A christian commits suicide?

[Near]

In another thread I made, a christian being threatened with death,
one user brought up an interesting question:

. . . Another serious question . . . . what about a person who has always professed to be a Christian and commits suicide? We have more of those than of people ordered to deny Christ at gunpoint.

Possible questions to address:

So, what about such a person?

Is it even possible for a true christian to commit suicide?

Some may say suicide isn't even a sin, others compare suicide to self-murder.

Is suicide a forgivable sin? Can one be forgiven after death?

What does it mean if a person commits suicide, and why would any christian commit suicide?

Do the conditions of suicide matter in God's eyes? Reasons, culture, environmental pressures?

What happened to Judas?

Do we have reasons to think that God would let a person who is saved get into a situation in which he is going to commit suicide due to depression, drugs, hallucinations?


Some users have expressed the feeling that we may be unjustly damning people, but we're not judging anyone in particular, this is purely theoretical.

 

[Near]

From the other thread:

There are cultures where suicide isn't deplorable, but is an honorable thing to do in certain cases. If raised in such a culture, would the suicide committer be judged by God as equally a sinner as if you were to commit suicide?

For example, a woman ravaged and left pregnant might commit suicide in order to preserve the family honor. However we might deplore such an action, in some cultures she would feel she had done the only honorable thing.

Suicide may be deemed honorable in other cultures, and the same is true for many practices. Take for example the honor killings of Islam. Men killing their own daughters to preserve honor. We are against that practice.
As for other cultures, it seems that we're referring to other religions. Anyone who dies practicing another religion, isn't saved anyways, whether or not they commit suicide. When it comes to being equally a sinner, we have all sinned, but what you mean by equally is vague.

 

[ewq1938]

That's a questionable definition you gave. Could you provide resources which seem to point to that interpretation?

The Hebrew definition of murder is to lie in wait and murder someone else.

Exo 21:12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.
Exo 21:13 And if a man lie not in wait, but God deliver him into his hand; then I will appoint thee a place whither he shall flee.

Suicide is unjustified self-killing, it seems to me.

How is it unjustified? The one who decided their life should end was the person themselves.

From what I've read from the greek new-testament the word φονεύω, refers to unjustified killing, nothing less.

The unjust killing of someone else. Suicide is not part of it's definition.

 

[Near]

Exo 21:12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.
Exo 21:13 And if a man lie not in wait, but God deliver him into his hand; then I will appoint thee a place whither he shall flee.

Actually, you underlined, and bolded a few hebrew words:
וַאֲשֶׁר֙ לֹ֣א צָדָ֔ה וְהָאֱלֹהִ֖ים אִנָּ֣ה לְיָדֹ֑ו
None of which are translated as murder.
Your mistake is that you've taken one example, and used that as the definition of all that encompasses what is described as murder. Essentially, you are saying, "this verse doesn't mention suicide, therefore the definition of murder excludes suicide".
Take note that the word murder isn't even in the verses you quoted, but rather lying in wait is described, and then referred to again by yourself, which is irrelevant.

The hebrew word for murder is this one: רָצַח
Exodus 20:13 You shall not murder.
It doesn't mention suicide, and it doesn't explicitly say, "killing others only".

How is it unjustified? The one who decided their life should end was the person themselves.
The unjust killing of someone else. Suicide is not part of it's definition.

Since when do we say taking one's life is justified if it's self-determined?
It makes sense to say, rather than oppose the idea, that God's desire for us is to live productive lives in Christ.
Now, if my girlfriend dumps me, and in sorrow and hopelessness I decide to end it all, and kill myself, that would be going against God's will for my life. The killing wouldn't be justified.
Looking at this another way, if my suicide is assisted, and someone else kills me on my behalf, is that a justified killing?
In that case someone else does the killing, but is it justified?

Another thing, if your understanding of murder necessarily contains the aspect of someone lying in wait to kill, what about people who announce before you that they'll kill you? There's no secretive assault, as the verse you quoted describes, but a full revelation of the plan. That must not be murder in that view.

"The unjust killing of someone else. Suicide is not part of it's definition."
Well, you're not even defining murder, you literally just named a specific situation, "the killing of someone else", and said that's not suicide.

 

[ewq1938]

Actually, you underlined, and bolded a few hebrew words:
וַאֲשֶׁר֙ לֹ֣א צָדָ֔ה וְהָאֱלֹהִ֖ים אִנָּ֣ה לְיָדֹ֑ו
None of which are translated as murder.

I know. The murder was in the previous verse where the offender hid in wait in order to murder the person.

Take note that the word murder isn't even in the verses you quoted, but rather lying in wait is described, and then referred to again by yourself, which is irrelevant.

What is irrelevant is the lack of the word murder since murder is being described.

The hebrew word for murder is this one: רָצַח
Exodus 20:13 You shall not murder.
It doesn't mention suicide, and it doesn't explicitly say, "killing others only".

I didn't say the word murder includes hiding in wait but it is part of the Hebrew defining of murder based on that verse.

Since when do we say taking one's life is justified if it's self-determined?

Always?

Show me one verse that says suicide is a sin. Even half a verse will suffice.

Another thing, if your understanding of murder necessarily contains the aspect of someone lying in wait to kill, what about people who announce before you that they'll kill you?

They were hidden to you before that.

"The unjust killing of someone else. Suicide is not part of it's definition."
Well, you're not even defining murder, you literally just named a specific situation, "the killing of someone else", and said that's not suicide.

It's still a fact that the Hebrew word for murder does not include suicide as part of it's definition. Nor is suicide called murder in scripture.

 

[Near]

I know. The murder was in the previous verse where the offender hid in wait in order to murder the person.

No it wasn't. Assault was described.

What is irrelevant is the lack of the word murder since murder is being described.

Murder while described, is not defined there. You are committing the fallacy of composition. Taking one situation and using that to define the broad spectrum of what encompasses murder.

I didn't say the word murder includes hiding in wait but it is part of the Hebrew defining of murder based on that verse.

That verse deals with assault that leads to death, it doesn't define murder.

Always?
Show me one verse that says suicide is a sin. Even half a verse will suffice.

The bible doesn't show such a verse naming suicide explicitly, however it's not outside the idea of unjust killing, ie murder.
Secondly, Romans 14:23 says, But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

It makes sense to say suicide is not an action which proceeds from faith, or an action that pleases God.
Due to that fact alone, we can say that suicide is a sin. One need not look through the Torah to determine such since the New Testament provides such widely encompassing statements.

Additionally, Galatians 5 says
19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; 20idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, 21and envy; drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no Law.

Suicide doesn't seem like a fruit of the spirit at all. In fact it seems like a work of the flesh, and is typically done for some because of the things mentioned including envy, rage, and jealousy.

A few smaller points:

They were hidden to you before that.

Unless they declare it on public television and give you a year's notice, and that is not the essence of being hidden whatsoever.

It's still a fact that the Hebrew word for murder does not include suicide as part of it's definition. Nor is suicide called murder in scripture.

Not explicitly, but that doesn't mean suicide wasn't understood to be a form of murder, and therefore contained within the definition.

 

[ewq1938]

No it wasn't. Assault was described.

Murder was described:

Exo 21:12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.

Murder while described, is not defined there.

Contradicting yourself doesn't help your position.

You are committing the fallacy of composition. Taking one situation and using that to define the broad spectrum of what encompasses murder.

That verse deals with assault that leads to death, it doesn't define murder.

It does because if he laid in wait it was murder. If not, then he wasn't guilty of murder and would be spared.

The bible doesn't show such a verse naming suicide explicitly, however it's not outside the idea of unjust killing, ie murder.
Secondly, Romans 14:23 says, But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

It makes sense to say suicide is not an action which proceeds from faith, or an action that pleases God.

Nice try but that hardly shows that suicide is a sin.

Due to that fact alone, we can say that suicide is a sin.

lol, like reading a book without faith is a sin too? Or trimming your fingernails?

Suicide doesn't seem like a fruit of the spirit at all. In fact it seems like a work of the flesh, and is typically done for some because of the things mentioned including envy, rage, and jealousy.

Not even close. Most suicide is based on extreme sadness, perhaps a mental illness. Some are so avoid a worse death like King Saul....which scripture does not present in a negative way.

Not explicitly, but that doesn't mean suicide wasn't understood to be a form of murder, and therefore contained within the definition.

It's not considered murder, that's the whole point.

 

[Near]

Murder was described:

Exo 21:12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.

Yes, a murder was described, not defined.

Contradicting yourself doesn't help your position.

The issue is, you're confusing describing a situation with defining the concept.

It does because if he laid in wait it was murder. If not, then he wasn't guilty of murder and would be spared.

Same point,
If I say, "the marriage involved a white man and a black women, and they were happy at the end of the day," I'm describing a marriage, not defining marriage. If I defined marriage that way, marriage would only be between a white man and a black woman.

Nice try but that hardly shows that suicide is a sin.

On the contrary, I think it's quite compelling. I wonder if anyone else will see it that way.
Perhaps, at this point we've reached an impasse, and that's okay.

Not even close. Most suicide is based on extreme sadness, perhaps a mental illness. Some are so avoid a worse death like King Saul....which scripture does not present in a negative way.

I'm willing to say suicide is based on sadness, but what that sadness is derived from is what I'm interested in; rejection, and sadness due to jealousy, or covetousness? As for mental illness, it's hard to say if a person is really responsible for his actions depending on severity of an illness, and perhaps intent matters in certain situations, as with Saul. I'll say that suicide however ought to be defined as an unjust killing of the self, one which God deems unjust.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, a murder was described, not defined.

A bit of both actually.

The issue is, you're confusing describing a situation with defining the concept.

Same thing.

I'll say that suicide however ought to be defined as an unjust killing of the self, one which God deems unjust.

Can you prove it was unjust in Saul's case? Is there anything written that portrays it negatively?

 

[Near]

lol, like reading a book without faith is a sin too? Or trimming your fingernails?

Yes, and eating without faith is sin. Does God lead those who commit suicide to do so as an faithful act unto him?
Would God allow someone to faithfully believe suicide is the answer to life's problems?
Aren't we commanded to go about our lives denying ourselves, and shine as examples?
Suicide is disobedience to God in that regard, at least in the case where people are merely depressed and just want to end their lives.

 

[Near]

Same thing.

Well, I guess marriage is only between white men and black women then. Please see post #8 to understand.

Can you prove it was unjust in Saul's case? Is there anything written that portrays it negatively?

I'm not making the case that Saul killed himself unjustly. Perhaps he had, or perhaps I'm missing something.
Regardless, that was in the OT era, and now we're living under a higher calling as in the new testament.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, and eating without faith is sin.

Bah. You don't need to trim your fingernails with faith lol

Does God lead those who commit suicide to do so as an faithful act unto him?

Highly doubt it.

Would God allow someone to faithfully believe suicide is the answer to life's problems?

See above.

Aren't we commanded to go about our lives denying ourselves, and shine as examples?

If we are emotionally stable, sure.

Suicide is disobedience to God in that regard, at least in the case where people are merely depressed and just want to end their lives.

I'm still waiting for even half a scripture where God states suicide is a sin.

 

[ewq1938]

I'm not making the case that Saul killed himself unjustly. Perhaps he had, or perhaps I'm missing something.

Sounds correct.

Regardless, that was in the OT era, and now we're living under a higher calling as in the new testament.

No, there is no higher calling lol

 

[Near]

I'm still waiting for even half a scripture where God states suicide is a sin.

As I stated, earlier, I believe we've reached an impasse.
Below is what I believe to be the case, disagree as you may, it seems like we're at the dead end of our discussion.

The bible doesn't show such a verse naming suicide explicitly, however it's not outside the idea of unjust killing, ie murder.
Secondly, Romans 14:23 says, But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

It makes sense to say suicide is not an action which proceeds from faith, or an action that pleases God.
Due to that fact alone, we can say that suicide is a sin. One need not look through the Torah to determine such since the New Testament provides such widely encompassing statements.

Additionally, Galatians 5 says
19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; 20idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, 21and envy; drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no Law.

Suicide doesn't seem like a fruit of the spirit at all. In fact it seems like a work of the flesh, and is typically done for some because of the things mentioned including envy, rage, and jealousy.

 

[Gabriel Anton]

Possible questions to address:

Is it even possible for a true christian to commit suicide?

No.

Is suicide a forgivable sin? Can one be forgiven after death?

No. No.

What does it mean if a person commits suicide, and why would any christian commit suicide?

It means they submitted to what sin has offered to them. A way out of the darkness which sin has surrounded the person in.

Do the condition of suicide matter in God's eyes?
The soul was lost to sin in a spiritual war and death is the outcome.

What happened to Judas?
Betraying Jesus led to the absence of Light in his soul, allowing sin to permeate the suggestion of death upon him in which Judas accepted and acted upon to escape the misery of feeling guilt of knowing the Truth of the matter at hand.

 

[ewq1938]

As I stated, earlier, I believe we've reached an impasse.
Below is what I believe to be the case, disagree as you may, it seems like we're at the dead end of our discussion.

Maybe they had faith that suicide would not be held against them as a sin.

 

[Near]

Maybe they had faith that suicide would not be held against them as a sin.

Well, there's that, but where would such faith come from? God, or somewhere else?
When I think of this situation, I think of those cults that tell people that the world is ending on x-Month, x-Day, x-Year.
As far as theology goes, from what I've heard, and read, those groups are all heretical... or just not christian.

Marshall Applewhite, the 65-year-old leader of the Heaven's Gate group

 

[Onyx208]

I am a Christian. I have been in the psych ward 12 times and to 3 long term facilities. I have schizoaffective. I came closest to death in 2008 when I mass overdosed and my liver went into immediate failure mode. It was bad.

I think it depends.

It was mentioned a couple times a situational scenario. Break ups, loss, or other negative external factors pushing to suicide. Then I tend to agree that yes- you're getting out of touch with your faith and putting the spotlight on your pain instead of God's love and mercy.

But when you have serious chemical imbalances... you're not out of touch with your faith. You're straight up out of touch with reality.

For years, my voices controlled my every move. When it escalated to The Council wanting me to take my life, I had no idea that wasn't the right and good thing to do. I couldn't be reasoned with because I was desperately sick.

Would God not let someone who died of cancer into Heaven?

Serious clinical mental illness is no different. People die from the illnesses. Not from this "sin."

I'm on 12 daily meds and I feel manageable. God works miracles and a huge miracle for me is that he gifted us with the medical abilities to break my paranoia, delusions, and hallucinations. I haven't had those symptoms in over a year. Just very recently I have begun to share my experience with others in hopes it will bring the light of Christ to those struggling. So there's my two sense.

Blessings.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

So, what about such a person?

What do you mean by that question?

Is it even possible for a true christian to commit suicide?

Yes.

Some may say suicide isn't even a sin, others compare suicide to self-murder.

It's sin. It's not a righteous act.

Is suicide a forgivable sin?

Yes.

Can one be forgiven after death?

No.

why would any christian commit suicide?

Too many reasons to list.

Just remember, we're not judging anyone in particular,

Where did you get that idea from?

 

[Near]

Where did you get that idea from?

Some people seem to say "let God be the one to decide that, I'll have no say". This was mentioned in the other post. It seems that in saying that all further discussion on the topic ought to be avoided, as if the topic is taboo.

As for " such a person " I'm referring to the quote which mentions a professing Christian who commits suicide.