A biblical approach to secular music

Jonathan95

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God sees a word as simply a word. What is also looked at is the intent of the word you say and who you direct it against. If I were to say "f-you" then I am cursing at you. If I say "you are an awful person" I am also cursing at you. However, if I stub my toe and yell the f word, is god really going to look at it with a frown on his face? No I am expressing the pain my toe is feeling, just like if I say "ouch".

How exactly can you categorize all non-christian music as "deceitful lips" and "naughty tongues"? Do you have substantiative proof that all musicians are trying to deceive you with their "naughty tongues"?

To say the f word is sinful - it's corrupt and unholy. A fruit of the Holy Spirit is self-control. One has no right to sin because of his pain.

"Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers." Ephesians 4:29

"Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:" Romans 3:13.

James 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? 12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

Than what is a curse word or what is destructive? Explain the difference? Swearing in The Holy Bible - Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs - Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums

Is saying a donkey's behind more of a curse word than exclaiming pain in a physical injury? If you think about it, your not cursing anyone in the circumstances.

You can't compare those words in the Bible with wicked f-words, dirty language etc.
 
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McMatt

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To say the f word is sinful - it's corrupt and unholy. A fruit of the Holy Spirit is self-control. One has no right to sin because of his pain.

Where in the bible does it say the f word is a sin?

"Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers." Ephesians 4:29

Talking about not speaking false truths

"Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:" Romans 3:13.

Thats describing someone or something. However it is saying they lie, not they said the f word

James 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? 12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

That says nothing about "swear words". It is saying you can't speak evil things and good things. However nothing mentions a "list" of words that are considered bad

You can't compare those words in the Bible with wicked f-words, dirty language etc.

To what dirty language are you speaking of?

Kid, I'm gonna give you a brief lesson on language history. Only in the english language (from about the 1850's and forward) in the anglicized north america were words considered "swear words". The worst thing you can say in french is tabarnak, and that isn't because of the word, it's because the word by definition is used to curse the roman catholic church. No other languages consider words swear words.

So I ask you again, how is it sinful? Because a group of people decided one day that they don't like certain words? a word that means poo, a word that means sex, a word that means butt, a word that means female dog?

The only place where these words become sinful is how you use them.
 
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Jonathan95

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Where in the bible does it say the f word is a sin?

It does say so indirectly at several places.

"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh." Luke 6:45

"Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee." Proverbs 4:24. See 17:20 and 19:1 too.

Saying the f word is perverse, it is connected to sex (in a bad way).

Talking about not speaking false truths

Corrupt communication applies to the f word as well. It doesn't impart grace to the hearers.

Thats describing someone or something. However it is saying they lie, not they said the f word

"An open sepulchre", "the poison of asps is under their lips:" ... This applies to the f word as well.

Don't try to justify sins.
 
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McMatt

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It does say so indirectly at several places.

"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh." Luke 6:45

"Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee." Proverbs 4:24. See 17:20 and 19:1 too.

Saying the f word is perverse, it is connected to sex (in a bad way).



Corrupt communication applies to the f word as well. It doesn't impart grace to the hearers.



"An open sepulchre", "the poison of asps is under their lips:" ... This applies to the f word as well.

Don't try to justify sins.

It really doesn't apply. It says don't speak evil. Where does it say a word is evil specifically? And no the f word is a simile to sex. Not a derogatory form of the word. The only reason it is considered derogatory is because someone one day said this word is a "swear" word

But in context to the thread, do "swear" words appear on every non christian song on every non christian album? No. So your reasoning (however misguided) applies to only some non christian music
 
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SayaOtonashi

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There are rap songs that are education such has the 44 leaders in the USA. Not only that but you have to ban all music if you think this for Egyptians were playing the same instruments that the Hebrews in palms were asking to use to praise God. Yoy do know that this music has Christan music did not exist so you have to place us in non christen. Not only that but the organ was used in Roman Circus has Christians were fed to lions. So the Organ has to be stopped. You ave to know that there were people who were actors and doctors and musicians who had secular jobs. Not all have to do with God. It's what you do with it and how it affect people.
 
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SayaOtonashi

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According to music historian Abraham Schwadron, "probably the most important musical contribution of the ancient Hebrews was the elevation of the status of liturgical music in union with ritual ceremonies." He notes the "high degree of musico-liturgical organization" from the descriptive accounts of King Solomon's Temple, such as the 24 choral groups consisting of 288 musicians which took part in 21 weekly services.[6]
Despite the similar instruments used by the Hebrews which were also used in neighboring cultures, including Phoenicia, Egypt, Assyria, and Greece, Schwadron writes that "it would be accurate to state that . . . it is in the particular uses of music—sacred and secular, ethical and aesthetical—that ancient Jewish music made a unique contribution.[6]
Music historian John Stainer notes that the earlier relationship between Abraham and the Canaanites "in all probability influenced future Hebrew music," and which probably caused his posterity to carry a certain amount of Assyrian music or musical instruments into Egypt. He adds that a stay of four centuries "in so civilized a culture as Egypt must have largely added to their knowledge of the art

Whitcomb writes that "much of the most beautiful music of the Bible is contained in the Psalms," and the word "psalm" comes from the Greek word meaning "to sing or strike the lyre." The psalter or psaltery was one of the instruments which accompanied the Psalm.[9] The psalms were sung antiphonally or responsively, perhaps by the priest and congregation, or by two choruses.
According to Shiloah, most of the customs and ceremonies mentioned earlier, such as weddings or other celebrations, were accompanied by music made by women and attests to the importance of women's songs. But there were many instances where women sang alone or with friends and family. "The woman fortifies her spirit by singing to herself, and perhaps to her infant, who hears and absorbs the mother's confessions, longings, complaints, and dreams." There were also "mother-songs, soldier-songs, grass-widow-songs, orphan-songs, and woman's-trade-songs." According to some, writes Shiloah, women's songs existed because of the need to compensate for the ban against public participation of women in synagogue rituals.[10]
Ancient music historian Joachim Braun notes that Philo had mentioned ritualist vigils near Alexandria, that included a meal and the singing of hymns by a double chorus as accompaniment to the processions and libation


The Bible mentions many uses of music including songs of praise, songs of victory, songs of mourning, and above all the Psalms. Dances were also a common music expression along with the combination of singing with instrumental music. During later times there was also a purely vocal music which prevailed for a period.[5] According to Ulrich, music played an important part in both the secular and the religious life of the Hebrews. Kings and other leaders of the people were customarily acclaimed in songs and fanfares, and very elaborate musical services in the Temple, described in the Bible, were important parts of worship. There are, for instance, descriptions in the Bible of an orchestra consisting of nine lutes, two harps, and a cymbal.[5] In other parts there are accounts of all-women choirs combined with singing and dancing to the men's percussion accompaniment. Werner adds that the choir's repertoire consisted of psalms, canticles, and other poetic passages from Scripture, although it may have contained some noncanonical texts. The choice of psalms is said to have been determined by God's activities on the first seven days of creation, and the verses which allude to them.[8]:13
Werner writes that "unique in the history of music is the firm belief in the purifying and sin-atoning power of the Temple's music, ascribed to both chant and instruments."[8] The music had to be free from blemish or fault, and avoided magical elements. Even the High Priest's garment had symbolism: (Exod. 28:34-35): "a golden bell and a pomegranate, round about on the skirts of the robe . . . and its sound shall be heard when he goes into the holy place before the Lord . . . " According to Philo and Josephus, the bells represented symbols of cosmic harmony.[8]:10


This shots down your logic for secular music was used has well in biblical times
 
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Jonathan95

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According to music historian Abraham Schwadron, "probably the most important musical contribution of the ancient Hebrews was the elevation of the status of liturgical music in union with ritual ceremonies." He notes the "high degree of musico-liturgical organization" from the descriptive accounts of King Solomon's Temple, such as the 24 choral groups consisting of 288 musicians which took part in 21 weekly services.[6]
Despite the similar instruments used by the Hebrews which were also used in neighboring cultures, including Phoenicia, Egypt, Assyria, and Greece, Schwadron writes that "it would be accurate to state that . . . it is in the particular uses of music—sacred and secular, ethical and aesthetical—that ancient Jewish music made a unique contribution.[6]
Music historian John Stainer notes that the earlier relationship between Abraham and the Canaanites "in all probability influenced future Hebrew music," and which probably caused his posterity to carry a certain amount of Assyrian music or musical instruments into Egypt. He adds that a stay of four centuries "in so civilized a culture as Egypt must have largely added to their knowledge of the art

Whitcomb writes that "much of the most beautiful music of the Bible is contained in the Psalms," and the word "psalm" comes from the Greek word meaning "to sing or strike the lyre." The psalter or psaltery was one of the instruments which accompanied the Psalm.[9] The psalms were sung antiphonally or responsively, perhaps by the priest and congregation, or by two choruses.
According to Shiloah, most of the customs and ceremonies mentioned earlier, such as weddings or other celebrations, were accompanied by music made by women and attests to the importance of women's songs. But there were many instances where women sang alone or with friends and family. "The woman fortifies her spirit by singing to herself, and perhaps to her infant, who hears and absorbs the mother's confessions, longings, complaints, and dreams." There were also "mother-songs, soldier-songs, grass-widow-songs, orphan-songs, and woman's-trade-songs." According to some, writes Shiloah, women's songs existed because of the need to compensate for the ban against public participation of women in synagogue rituals.[10]
Ancient music historian Joachim Braun notes that Philo had mentioned ritualist vigils near Alexandria, that included a meal and the singing of hymns by a double chorus as accompaniment to the processions and libation


The Bible mentions many uses of music including songs of praise, songs of victory, songs of mourning, and above all the Psalms. Dances were also a common music expression along with the combination of singing with instrumental music. During later times there was also a purely vocal music which prevailed for a period.[5] According to Ulrich, music played an important part in both the secular and the religious life of the Hebrews. Kings and other leaders of the people were customarily acclaimed in songs and fanfares, and very elaborate musical services in the Temple, described in the Bible, were important parts of worship. There are, for instance, descriptions in the Bible of an orchestra consisting of nine lutes, two harps, and a cymbal.[5] In other parts there are accounts of all-women choirs combined with singing and dancing to the men's percussion accompaniment. Werner adds that the choir's repertoire consisted of psalms, canticles, and other poetic passages from Scripture, although it may have contained some noncanonical texts. The choice of psalms is said to have been determined by God's activities on the first seven days of creation, and the verses which allude to them.[8]:13
Werner writes that "unique in the history of music is the firm belief in the purifying and sin-atoning power of the Temple's music, ascribed to both chant and instruments."[8] The music had to be free from blemish or fault, and avoided magical elements. Even the High Priest's garment had symbolism: (Exod. 28:34-35): "a golden bell and a pomegranate, round about on the skirts of the robe . . . and its sound shall be heard when he goes into the holy place before the Lord . . . " According to Philo and Josephus, the bells represented symbols of cosmic harmony.[8]:10


This shots down your logic for secular music was used has well in biblical times

William Booth said regarding music:

"Music affects the soul in the same way the wind does at the boat, it helps it forward in the direction, in which it is heading, If it sails downwards the stream of passions directly to the waterfalls of condemnation, then music will accelerate the speed and keep the cheerfulness alive during the ride."

(translated from Swedish, since I couldn't find it in English on the internet).

That's a true statement. The music at nightclubs stimulates the flesh and helps them to do their seducing dancing etc.
 
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PaxThroughX

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Music was around before Christians and before "Christian," was an established religion, the followers of Yeshua couldn't play "Christian," music, because there was no such thing at the time. Meaning, banning non-Christian music is irrelevant to the teachings of Christ to begin with. If anything it is a personal conviction and if it one for you, than ok, but for everyone else, not so much.
 
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Jonathan95

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Music was around before Christians and before "Christian," was an established religion, the followers of Yeshua couldn't play "Christian," music, because there was no such thing at the time. Meaning, banning non-Christian music is irrelevant to the teachings of Christ to begin with. If anything it is a personal conviction and if it one for you, than ok, but for everyone else, not so much.

The followers of Jesus still played music that was pleasing to God. There were jewish music back then (which is in a way Christian too, since Jesus is God and has always existed, so he was directly or implicitly worshipped).

I haven't said all music back then was of satan.
 
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PaxThroughX

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The followers of Jesus still played music that was pleasing to God. There were jewish music back then (which is in a way Christian too, since Jesus is God and has always existed, so he was directly or implicitly worshipped).

I haven't said all music back then was of satan.

You have actually and you cannot justify your agrument through the petty savior line- "I didn't say that etc etc." It is also important to take a look at what History has provided us, things to avoid and learn from. For one, Yeshua himself got on the pharisees for practicing tradition. Why? They got sucked into it rather than the purpose. The purpose for Christian music today should also not prohibit people from getting quality recording gear or even practice more with an actual professional training such as a secular guitarists etc. Oh no! Thats a sin because that guitarists is teaching secular songs, oh no! Who would have thought that "Ring Around the Rossie," was so bad. I am lost almost completely on how you hold this view. Nothing wrong with you having such a view, but saying its wrong for everyone else is pretty hypocritical.
 
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Jonathan95

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You have actually and you cannot justify your agrument through the petty savior line- "I didn't say that etc etc." It is also important to take a look at what History has provided us, things to avoid and learn from. For one, Yeshua himself got on the pharisees for practicing tradition. Why? They got sucked into it rather than the purpose. The purpose for Christian music today should also not prohibit people from getting quality recording gear or even practice more with an actual professional training such as a secular guitarists etc. Oh no! Thats a sin because that guitarists is teaching secular songs, oh no! Who would have thought that "Ring Around the Rossie," was so bad. I am lost almost completely on how you hold this view. Nothing wrong with you having such a view, but saying its wrong for everyone else is pretty hypocritical.

Jesus didn't condemn tradition as a whole, but specific traditions - viz. traditions of men, that makes void the word of God. Not all tradition do this, for example like Apostolic tradition (also called Sacred tradition), which the Catholic Church has passed on from the Apostles.

Why should Christian music prevent people from getting quality recording gear?

Why is it hypocritical to say secular music is wrong?
 
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PaxThroughX

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Jesus didn't condemn tradition as a whole, but specific traditions - viz. traditions of men, that makes void the word of God. Not all tradition do this, for example like Apostolic tradition (also called Sacred tradition), which the Catholic Church has passed on from the Apostles.

Why should Christian music prevent people from getting quality recording gear?

Why is it hypocritical to say secular music is wrong?

Why is Secular music wrong? Is it really wrong or an inner belief of someone? Why does alot of Christian music prevent people from getting quality recording gear? I see alot of these bands come and go. One of there issues is they dont try musically. I believe if your going to call yourself a christian musician you should give your all and I see that very little.
 
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Jonathan95

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According to music historian Abraham Schwadron, "probably the most important musical contribution of the ancient Hebrews was the elevation of the status of liturgical music in union with ritual ceremonies." He notes the "high degree of musico-liturgical organization" from the descriptive accounts of King Solomon's Temple, such as the 24 choral groups consisting of 288 musicians which took part in 21 weekly services.[6]
Despite the similar instruments used by the Hebrews which were also used in neighboring cultures, including Phoenicia, Egypt, Assyria, and Greece, Schwadron writes that "it would be accurate to state that . . . it is in the particular uses of music—sacred and secular, ethical and aesthetical—that ancient Jewish music made a unique contribution.[6]
Music historian John Stainer notes that the earlier relationship between Abraham and the Canaanites "in all probability influenced future Hebrew music," and which probably caused his posterity to carry a certain amount of Assyrian music or musical instruments into Egypt. He adds that a stay of four centuries "in so civilized a culture as Egypt must have largely added to their knowledge of the art

Whitcomb writes that "much of the most beautiful music of the Bible is contained in the Psalms," and the word "psalm" comes from the Greek word meaning "to sing or strike the lyre." The psalter or psaltery was one of the instruments which accompanied the Psalm.[9] The psalms were sung antiphonally or responsively, perhaps by the priest and congregation, or by two choruses.
According to Shiloah, most of the customs and ceremonies mentioned earlier, such as weddings or other celebrations, were accompanied by music made by women and attests to the importance of women's songs. But there were many instances where women sang alone or with friends and family. "The woman fortifies her spirit by singing to herself, and perhaps to her infant, who hears and absorbs the mother's confessions, longings, complaints, and dreams." There were also "mother-songs, soldier-songs, grass-widow-songs, orphan-songs, and woman's-trade-songs." According to some, writes Shiloah, women's songs existed because of the need to compensate for the ban against public participation of women in synagogue rituals.[10]
Ancient music historian Joachim Braun notes that Philo had mentioned ritualist vigils near Alexandria, that included a meal and the singing of hymns by a double chorus as accompaniment to the processions and libation


The Bible mentions many uses of music including songs of praise, songs of victory, songs of mourning, and above all the Psalms. Dances were also a common music expression along with the combination of singing with instrumental music. During later times there was also a purely vocal music which prevailed for a period.[5] According to Ulrich, music played an important part in both the secular and the religious life of the Hebrews. Kings and other leaders of the people were customarily acclaimed in songs and fanfares, and very elaborate musical services in the Temple, described in the Bible, were important parts of worship. There are, for instance, descriptions in the Bible of an orchestra consisting of nine lutes, two harps, and a cymbal.[5] In other parts there are accounts of all-women choirs combined with singing and dancing to the men's percussion accompaniment. Werner adds that the choir's repertoire consisted of psalms, canticles, and other poetic passages from Scripture, although it may have contained some noncanonical texts. The choice of psalms is said to have been determined by God's activities on the first seven days of creation, and the verses which allude to them.[8]:13
Werner writes that "unique in the history of music is the firm belief in the purifying and sin-atoning power of the Temple's music, ascribed to both chant and instruments."[8] The music had to be free from blemish or fault, and avoided magical elements. Even the High Priest's garment had symbolism: (Exod. 28:34-35): "a golden bell and a pomegranate, round about on the skirts of the robe . . . and its sound shall be heard when he goes into the holy place before the Lord . . . " According to Philo and Josephus, the bells represented symbols of cosmic harmony.[8]:10


This shots down your logic for secular music was used has well in biblical times

When I'm talking about secular music, I mean explicit secular music. Not secular piano music or such. That's not necessarily wrong in itself to listen to, unless you only listen to that for example.

I don't know if I was really against all secular music when I started the thread, however, I don't condemn all secular music, but I do condemn explicit secular music, because it's a perversion of what music is meant to be.
 
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South Bound

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I meant posters people have of favorite artists etc, which are like Idols to them or to other people. Since they are idols to other people, we aren't to have those posters.

I have a Jerry Jeff Walker poster in my shop. All it is, is a souvenir of an enjoyable event. How is it an idol?
 
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I have a Jerry Jeff Walker poster in my shop. All it is, is a souvenir of an enjoyable event. How is it an idol?

The only reason why any man would put a picture up of someone else is to worship that person(s).

This is why God commanded that we not make any image of anything living or dead to worship them. Because he knew that men would idolize others as better than themselves in some sort of way instead of testifying of God's authority. That is to say that any man who is so emotionally unstable as to hang an image or craft from stone, bronze, gold, diamond an image, does not give glory unto God testifying that God made all men and beasts and trees and they, as creations, are not to be held in higher esteem than any other thing created.

And do not say that you honour the man in the poster because I will tell you that honouring a poster is the same thing as honouring the dead; vain. And if Aaron had given such an excuse for his transgression, which is the same as hanging a poster of a man in your house, I doubt the Lord's mercy would have been so great.

You are to keep God's law and prove its righteousness. Not make excuses to sin. Solomon spoke well saying that there is nothing new under the sun, that all that has been shall be again. It is our job to compare the acts of our ancestors to our own and see how they are the same and which actions are lawful and which unlawful so that we may have perfect hearts before God.

If you cannot understand all that yet, then it is as Christ said, "Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein." That means you obey with a "Yes, Master' until he explains the reason why he commanded you in the first place with trust that what he says to do and not to do is good for you. Knowing also that he will not explain except you obey first. Which is why so many do not understand. They refuse to obey.

Further more, we know that all God's commandments are wise and lovingly towards his people and sin is the opposite. So for all things, if you would seek to sin, you must first explain why your sin is loving and not hateful. You must explain why having that poster of another man ,against commandmen,t is doing good and not harm.

That is impossible and you are in the wrong. Take it down so that there should be no enmity between you ad God on that matter of whom you worship.
 
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South Bound

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The only reason why any man would put a picture up of someone else is to worship that person(s).

That's a pretty silly thing to say.

Take it down so that there should be no enmity between you ad God on that matter of whom you worship.

Actually, there's already no enmity between me and God because of Christ's atonement.

Second, I don't believe you've shown sufficient evidence that having a picture as a souvenir of an event is a sin or idolatry.

Third, I don't believe you've shown sufficient evidence that I am not entitled, under the Biblical principle of liberty in Christ, to have a picture.

In any event, it sounds like you have your mind made up so I'm not going to pursue this with you any further.
 
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That's a pretty silly thing to say.



Actually, there's already no enmity between me and God because of Christ's atonement.

Second, I don't believe you've shown sufficient evidence that having a picture as a souvenir of an event is a sin or idolatry.

Third, I don't believe you've shown sufficient evidence that I am not entitled, under the Biblical principle of liberty in Christ, to have a picture.

In any event, it sounds like you have your mind made up so I'm not going to pursue this with you any further.


The burden of proof is not mine. It is yours. I have already compared the two sins and they are one in the same. If you cannot prove that God allows your and other peoples idols then you are the transgressor for if a thing is not done in faith it is sin. Furthermore, you were commanded not to let that which is good for you to be evil spoken of, so it is you who must prove you are allowed to do those things.

Thirdly, you must prove that the thing which you do and the rest of world also loves to do(This is a problem in itself, for the world loves to do that too) is good for you and not harm. For no righteous deed harms him who is righteous.

If you cannot, then you are the transgressor.
 
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