A baptismal question to Roman Catholics?

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Tyndale

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Recently a child died close to where I live. The child's parents were never married, the mother was brought up Roman Catholic, the father a Protestant. The child went to state school (a non-denominational school) and attended Protestant Sunday school in the church of Ireland.

Now according to our local Protestant minister (who visited the mortuary on a regular basis), the local RC Priest baptised the child as Roman Catholic in the mortuary.

I do not want to give out names, areas, etc, but is this not one step too far by the Roman Catholic church, a step which seems to go beyond the 'last rights' offered to the dead?
 

Albion

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Recently a child died close to where I live. The child's parents were never married, the mother was brought up Roman Catholic, the father a Protestant. The child went to state school (a non-denominational school) and attended Protestant Sunday school in the church of Ireland.

Now according to our local Protestant minister (who visited the mortuary on a regular basis), the local RC Priest baptised the child as Roman Catholic in the mortuary.

I do not want to give out names, areas, etc, but is this not one step too far by the Roman Catholic church, a step which seems to go beyond the 'last rights' offered to the dead?

Ex-RC here, but I remember the church's teachings on this difficult subject, and I don't think that there's been a change.

If the question concerns the RC priest overstepping his bounds, given the non-RC background of the deceased, I'd say "not necessarily so." You said that he baptised the child as a Roman Catholic, but according to the theology of all the mainstream churches--certainly including the Roman Catholic, Anglican (Church of Ireland), and Presbyterian--one is baptised a Christian, not baptised into any particular denomination. Regardless of how it seemed, the child was not baptised a Roman Catholic.

On the other hand, if your question is more concerned with the idea of baptising a corpse, what the priest did is certainly unconventional. The Roman Church has taken the position that we can't be absolutely sure when the soul leaves the body, therefore baptisms done on the person moments after death are not unheard of. The feeling is that it is done provisionally and that the situation is one involving an emergency. If it is too late, that is for God to decide. I can't see that this would be an emergency requiring the priest to take matters into his own hands.

But I have never heard of baptising a body in a mortuary. I do know that the RC church has taken the position I described above, i.e. that it may be proper and might be effective if the body is not yet cold--a condition which obviously was not the case here.

Incidentally, this has nothing to do with "last rites," which include confession of sins and the giving of holy communion to those who are seriously sick or, more often, in imminent danger of death. IOW, "last rites" doesn't refer to anything done for the dead. This situation relates to the church's policies and beliefs concerning baptism.
 
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Assisi

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Neither last rites nor baptism can be given to someone who has died.

Incidentally, 'last rites' is not only for the dying - it's certainly not for the dead. It is called extreme unction and is a sacrament of healing for anyone who is sick. I've received this sacrament many times.
 
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zeke37

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Doesn't matter anyway, if the soul is a child....innocents...age of accountability...

Our God is Great....not petty...and a specific denom's traditions won't change that.

Child baptism is not in the Bible anyway, and is tradition...


you must be able to make a real decision for God...and an infant cannot do that.
 
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lionroar0

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Doesn't matter anyway, if the soul is a child....innocents...age of accountability...

Our God is Great....not petty...and a specific denom's traditions won't change that.

Child baptism is not in the Bible anyway, and is tradition...


you must be able to make a real decision for God...and an infant cannot do that.

Since when does God's grace require our decision?
 
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lionroar0

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Now according to our local Protestant minister (who visited the mortuary on a regular basis), the local RC Priest baptised the child as Roman Catholic in the mortuary.

A person can not be baptised a Roman Catholic. A person can however be baptised by a Roman Catholic priest. As well as other ministers of other denominations. Provided it is done in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
 
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Jipsah

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Tyndale

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Ex-RC here, but I remember the church's teachings on this difficult subject, and I don't think that there's been a change.

If the question concerns the RC priest overstepping his bounds, given the non-RC background of the deceased, I'd say "not necessarily so." You said that he baptised the child as a Roman Catholic, but according to the theology of all the mainstream churches--certainly including the Roman Catholic, Anglican (Church of Ireland), and Presbyterian--one is baptised a Christian, not baptised into any particular denomination. Regardless of how it seemed, the child was not baptised a Roman Catholic.

Yes, one of my issues here was that the Priest overstepped his mark when the child died, given that the child was brought up Protestant and attended Protestant Sunday school. The Roman Catholic parent was happy with the child being brought up Protestant when alive, but for some unknown reason that changed when the child died and some neighbours say the mother was pressurised into it.

The child was Baptised by a Roman Catholic Priest. I didn't know an RC Priest could baptise you into the wider Christian faith without any significance given to the Roman Catholic faith. Why then was it necessary for the Pope to declare Protestant churches 'could not be called churches "in the proper sense" and that 'Protestant churches have "no sacramental priesthood". He might as well be saying Protestant ministers aren't blessed by the holy spirit.


On the other hand, if your question is more concerned with the idea of baptising a corpse, what the priest did is certainly unconventional. The Roman Church has taken the position that we can't be absolutely sure when the soul leaves the body, therefore baptisms done on the person moments after death are not unheard of. The feeling is that it is done provisionally and that the situation is one involving an emergency. If it is too late, that is for God to decide. I can't see that this would be an emergency requiring the priest to take matters into his own hands.

But I have never heard of baptising a body in a mortuary. I do know that the RC church has taken the position I described above, i.e. that it may be proper and might be effective if the body is not yet cold--a condition which obviously was not the case here.

In this case the child died as a result of a fire, so it wasn't possible to baptise the corpse when warm. I still don't understand how an RC Priest can be able to baptise a dead person into the Christian faith or the Roman Catholic faith as they seem to regard it.
 
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lionroar0

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The child was Baptised by a Roman Catholic Priest. I didn't know an RC Priest could baptise you into the wider Christian faith without any significance given to the Roman Catholic faith. Why then was it necessary for the Pope to declare Protestant churches 'could not be called churches "in the proper sense" and that 'Protestant churches have "no sacramental priesthood". He might as well be saying Protestant ministers aren't blessed by the holy spirit.

But that's not what he said. That's u inserting ur own meaning into his words.
 
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lionroar0

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In this case the child died as a result of a fire, so it wasn't possible to baptise the corpse when warm. I still don't understand how an RC Priest can be able to baptise a dead person into the Christian faith or the Roman Catholic faith as they seem to regard it.

A person can't be baptised after death. There's something going on that we don't know about.
 
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AngelusSax

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I realize I am not Roman Catholic, but I would like to offer this POV:

This issue came up the other day at my church (Lutheran) in a small adult class designed for new members (I attended to refresh myself on some of the basics).

What was discussed was baptizing people, but especially infants, after death. The issue is not, as we see it, the infant him/herself. The issue is the parent, and the psychological trauma that can come from believing that the baby is in hell (or in the RC case, purgatory) because they simply were unable to be baptized before they died. While we would recognize that we simply must entrust the soul of any child to the mercy and love of God, the parent is going through a lot more emotionally. As pastoral care, it is proper, we think (the small class, that is, I can't speak for ALL Lutherans obviously) to go through the baptismal rites on the dead baby if it will ease the trauma of the parent. It may or may not be effacacious, but if it helps the parents cope, then it is something not to be avoided.
 
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Albion

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Yes, one of my issues here was that the Priest overstepped his mark when the child died, given that the child was brought up Protestant and attended Protestant Sunday school. The Roman Catholic parent was happy with the child being brought up Protestant when alive, but for some unknown reason that changed when the child died and some neighbours say the mother was pressurised into it.

The child was Baptised by a Roman Catholic Priest. I didn't know an RC Priest could baptise you into the wider Christian faith without any significance given to the Roman Catholic faith. Why then was it necessary for the Pope to declare Protestant churches 'could not be called churches "in the proper sense" and that 'Protestant churches have "no sacramental priesthood". He might as well be saying Protestant ministers aren't blessed by the holy spirit.




In this case the child died as a result of a fire, so it wasn't possible to baptise the corpse when warm. I still don't understand how an RC Priest can be able to baptise a dead person into the Christian faith or the Roman Catholic faith as they seem to regard it.

Not to be too repetitive, but
1. It's improper to baptise a corpse as was done in this case. It's useless.
2. I wouldn't think that the priest acted properly IF he didn't have the parent's permission. I'm not sure from your account if that was the case or not.
3. Despite the RCC's view of Protestant churches, it does consider Protestant baptisms to be valid, so long as they are done in the name of the Triune God and use water.

It is a fundamental principle of the Catholic church and also the mainstream Protestant churches that one is not baptised into any denomination or branch of the church, just baptised a Christian.

People like to say that "I was baptised a Methodist" or "I was baptised a Catholic" but in reality this is not so. What they should say is that they were baptised IN a Methodist church, etc.
 
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Dark_Lite

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Yes, one of my issues here was that the Priest overstepped his mark when the child died, given that the child was brought up Protestant and attended Protestant Sunday school. The Roman Catholic parent was happy with the child being brought up Protestant when alive, but for some unknown reason that changed when the child died and some neighbours say the mother was pressurised into it.

I think this whole situation is one of those extraordinary situations that happens extremely rarely and any amount of debate here will probably not satisfactorily answer it. The Church does not teach baptism of the dead like the LDS church does. Albion's explanation seems logically probable, but I think the best explanation in this case is that a priest was acting out of his own beliefs and not necessarily the beliefs of the Church. It may have been good-intentioned, but was it correct? Doesn't really seem to be that way.

The child was Baptised by a Roman Catholic Priest. I didn't know an RC Priest could baptise you into the wider Christian faith without any significance given to the Roman Catholic faith.
The Church teaches that any trinitarian baptism is valid, no matter what denomination (for the most part) it comes from. Pretty much all the Protestant denominations are trinitarian, and as such the baptisms have the same value.

Why then was it necessary for the Pope to declare Protestant churches 'could not be called churches "in the proper sense" and that 'Protestant churches have "no sacramental priesthood". He might as well be saying Protestant ministers aren't blessed by the holy spirit.
The Catholic Church's position on Protestantism is a bit of a complicated issue. The Catholic Church believes itself to be the fullness of the faith, and other denominations to have most but not all of it. On the flip side, it also states that God works through the Protestant churches as well. Thusly, it recognizes the spiritual validity of Protestant traditions (and thus does not say "Protestant ministers aren't blessed by the holy spirit"), but it also denies the sacramental validity of most Protestant denominations.

In apostolic Christianity, the priesthood is viewed as one of the sacraments. Many Protestant denominations do not view it as such (indeed, some have 2 sacraments, others don't really have any), so I don't see how the Pope's statement is wrong... although the words are rather hard.
 
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Tyndale

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2. I wouldn't think that the priest acted properly IF he didn't have the parent's permission. I'm not sure from your account if that was the case or not.

I'm not sure either, maybe the parent asked the Priest to baptise the corpse. All I know is that the child was babtised by the Priest in the mortuary and went on to have a Roman Catholic burial.


3. Despite the RCC's view of Protestant churches, it does consider Protestant baptisms to be valid, so long as they are done in the name of the Triune God and use water.

It is a fundamental principle of the Catholic church and also the mainstream Protestant churches that one is not baptised into any denomination or branch of the church, just baptised a Christian.

Thanks for explaining that, I learned something new today:)
 
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Celticflower

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I realize I am not Roman Catholic, but I would like to offer this POV:

This issue came up the other day at my church (Lutheran) in a small adult class designed for new members (I attended to refresh myself on some of the basics).

What was discussed was baptizing people, but especially infants, after death. The issue is not, as we see it, the infant him/herself. The issue is the parent, and the psychological trauma that can come from believing that the baby is in hell (or in the RC case, purgatory) because they simply were unable to be baptized before they died. While we would recognize that we simply must entrust the soul of any child to the mercy and love of God, the parent is going through a lot more emotionally. As pastoral care, it is proper, we think (the small class, that is, I can't speak for ALL Lutherans obviously) to go through the baptismal rites on the dead baby if it will ease the trauma of the parent. It may or may not be effacacious, but if it helps the parents cope, then it is something not to be avoided.

This is pretty much what I was thinking - that it was done more for the parents than for the child.
 
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Albion

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I'm not sure either, maybe the parent asked the Priest to baptise the corpse. All I know is that the child was babtised by the Priest in the mortuary and went on to have a Roman Catholic burial.

Well, it does sound as though the child had never been baptised although she attended Protestant school and Sunday school, as you noted. It also appears that the mother requested the RC priest's services. Even if he'd acted on his own in doing the baptism, which I doubt, there would not have been a Catholic burial without the express request of the parent.

I still think the baptism of a long-dead person is unwarranted, but he probably took it upon himself to do this for the sake of the mother, as AngelusSax said. Whether this is in accordance with RC policy, even if we consider it to be an act of compassion, is something else.
 
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wiselife

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Baptism of desire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Roman Catholic Church teaches that "baptism is necessary for salvation." (Catechism of the Catholic Church, ss. 1257) [1]. It moreover teaches that baptism confers the forgiveness of sins by virtue of the enactment of the sacrament itself: "(b)y Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin." (ss. 1263). For Catholics, baptism is a unique, unrepeatable act; no one who has been baptized validly can receive the full pardon conferred by the sacrament a second time. (ss. 1272) Given these doctrines, it is a matter of serious concern for the Catholic Church if a believing Christian does not receive a valid baptism.
The doctrine of baptism of desire seeks to address some of the implications of these teachings. It holds that those who come to faith in the Catholic Church as adults and become catechumens before receiving baptism nevertheless are admitted to salvation even though the Church teaches that baptism is necessary for salvation. Non-Christians who seek God with a sincere heart and, moved by grace, try to do His will as they know it through the dictates of conscience can also be saved without water baptism; they are said to desire it implicitly. (cf. Catechism, 1260)
[edit]Martyrdom

Similarly, those who die as martyrs in a persecution of Christians are also judged by Roman Catholicism to have acquired the benefits of baptism without actually undergoing the ritual; this is the "baptism of blood" (baptismum sanguinis) (ss. 1258). Because the Catholic Church practises infant baptism, these issues seldom arise except for adult converts to Catholicism who were not baptised as children. The Catholic Church officially professes uncertainty about the fate in the afterlife of infants who die before baptism, observing that "the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God" (ss. 1261). Today, it is most commonly accepted that children who die in infancy or who are aborted are admitted into heaven.
[edit]Eastern Orthodox

Among Eastern Orthodox Christians, the basic doctrine of baptism of desire is accepted, although it is not so rigorously defined. The issue often does not arise within other Christian denominations, because their underlying theology of baptism is different. For many Protestants, baptism is an ordinance undertaken in obedience to the teaching of Jesus and to follow the example he set. The rite of baptism, however, in their view does not confer forgiveness of sins by its performance, nor is it thought to be necessary to salvation, which comes from faith alone and is not contingent upon any ritual or form of words. They point to passages such as Acts 10:44-48, in which various Gentiles who heard Peter preaching were converted and received the Holy Spirit prior to baptism; if baptism were necessary for salvation, these people would not have believed and received the Holy Spirit, it is argued. Orthodox and Roman Catholics would respond that in verses 47-48, baptism was in fact necessary, even though they had received the Holy Spirit, as Peter said, "'Can any man forbid water, that these would not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?' And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord."
[edit]Other theological views

Karl Rahner taught a very inclusive view called anonymous Christian, which holds that there may be an unlimited number of people who secretly long for Christ in spite of their non-Christian background. This view, which has influenced the official Church doctrine, is theologically close to Christian universalism, the teaching that all may be saved by divine grace.
On the other hand, Leonard Feeney was a U.S. Jesuit priest who defended the strict interpretation of the Roman Catholic doctrine, extra Ecclesiam nulla salus ("outside The Church there is no salvation"), arguing that baptism of blood and baptism of desire are unavailing and that therefore no non-Catholics will be saved.
 
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Albion

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The Catholic Church's position on Protestantism is a bit of a complicated issue. The Catholic Church believes itself to be the fullness of the faith, and other denominations to have most but not all of it. On the flip side, it also states that God works through the Protestant churches as well. Thusly, it recognizes the spiritual validity of Protestant traditions (and thus does not say "Protestant ministers aren't blessed by the holy spirit"), but it also denies the sacramental validity of most Protestant denominations.

In apostolic Christianity, the priesthood is viewed as one of the sacraments. Many Protestant denominations do not view it as such (indeed, some have 2 sacraments, others don't really have any), so I don't see how the Pope's statement is wrong... although the words are rather hard.

However, the RCC's position with regard to those Protestant chuches which DO view the sacraments in the same way as the RCC is the same as for those that don't. The key point here is that Baptism does not require a validly ordained minister of the Gospel as Holy Communion, for example, does. A layperson can baptise when it's necessary.
 
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