272 Slaves Were Sold to Save Georgetown. What Does It Owe Their Descendants?

[TheQuietRiot]

I disagree. In fact, I disagree 100%. You don't think there are any rich people in Africa? You don't think there are corrupt power brokers (AND politicians) who have managed to get themselves a princely situation? I guess that shows how little you know about Africa. Even the odd African who (*gasp*!) worked hard, attended school, has earned post secondary credentials and is successful. I guess that shows how willing you are to let caricatures inform your opinions OF AN ENTIRE CONTINENT.

At no point did I say that you cannot be successful living in Africa. If you can point to such a remark, please do so.

As I think about what you write, it sounds more and more xenophobic and ignorant so I better move on.

You just don't like it because it is true. Africa isn't a place full of happy children running in meadows with gumdrop smiles. It is locked in tribalism conflicts and religious superstition. It is improving in many areas, but vast areas are still rife with civil war, disease, famine not to mention witch burnings and child sacrifice.

You call me xenophobic and ignorant because it's easier to dismiss me as racist then actually look at the facts. Once again, if you can actually point to anything I've said that states or even implies that black people or people of any race are inferior to another race I'd be happy to look at it.

But lastly, a happy farmer who works hard for his family; goes back home to HIS house and is loved by HIS family and is an active member in HIS community, well, I'd argue they are better off than a transient with no loved ones, no sense of purpose, no job, compromised mental health, no sense of pride or motivation, and nobody to care.

Well personally I prefer to stick to objective facts rather than wishy washy emotive language like you do.

And the facts plainly state that you would be better off living in the USA than in Africa.

 

[rambot]

At no point did I say that you cannot be successful living in Africa. If you can point to such a remark, please do so.

Sure:

Any person regardless of race is undoubtedly better off in America than in any African country.

Done.
And therein is the only reason I'm having any kind of discussion with you on this topic at all.
Your use of the phrase "ANY PERSON". My argument is that there are successful (AND happy/content) people in Africa. You argue is that since child sacrifice exists in Uganda, South Africans in Johannesberg, are NOT better off than Americans.

You just don't like it because it is true.

I don't like it because it is myopic and dismissive of successful Africans.

Africa isn't a place full of happy children running in meadows with gumdrop smiles.

Never argued it was. Strawman.

It is locked in tribalism conflicts and religious superstition. It is improving in many areas, but vast areas are still rife with civil war, disease, famine not to mention witch burnings and child sacrifice.

"Vast areas" with witch burning and child sacrifice? The fact that there have been a few instances of witch burning (3 countries from what i've found), doesn't mean ALL of Africa burns witches. And I only read of child sacrifice happening in Uganda. I do agree there is a lot of civil war/conflict in Africa but it's not like the whole continent is aflame (about half).

I work with a fellow who immigrated from Rwanda three or four years ago. One of his biggest pet peeves of North Americans is that they equate every single country in Africa to be EXACTLY the same. They are ignorant to the fact that each country has it's own unique challenges and it's own unique cultural context. IT's always lumped into one big blob. My guess is that it is done so for intellectual convinience.

Let me be clear: I'm NOT arguing that Africa is a perfect place, not by a long shot. I'm also not arguing that EVERYONE in Africa has it better than the homeless in the US. My argument is that there ARE Africans who are fairing MUCH BETTER OFF than homeless people in America; even some fairing better than the middle class here.

You call me xenophobic and ignorant because it's easier to dismiss me as racist then actually look at the facts.

First off, I didn't call you racist; nor do I dismiss you as such. Learn the difference between the three terms you've just used (speaking of "Facts"). Also, when speaking of facts, one should present them in a proper context: Saying "Vast areas" of Africa are "rife with witch burnings and child sacrifice" is just incorrect.
As for Tribal conflicts? Again, not all of Africa is "locked" it in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Africa
though there certainly is a lot of it.

Once again, if you can actually point to anything I've said that states or even implies that black people or people of any race are inferior to another race I'd be happy to look at it.

Strawman. Didn't say that. I don't think you are racist.

Well personally I prefer to stick to objective facts rather than wishy washy emotive language like you do.

No you don't. If you had more respect for objective facts, you'd provide a more honest representation of the "Facts" informing your opinion.
Wishy washy language? See, now THAT is being dismissive. So having a home, loved ones, a job and community are not important? You should get rid of all those things in your life and see how you fair then.

And the facts plainly state that you would be better off living in the USA than in Africa.

Really? Because in your rush to say you have such a love of "Facts" you have dismissed the successes of these people:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/mfonobo...eturned-to-the-2015-forbes-list/#3e7bef467773

Not the "facts"; the ODDS...the "likelihood". Your extrapolation, in my view, is not logical.

 

[Four Angels Standing]

If your great grandfather shattered the dignity of my greatgrandfather; subjugated him and whipped him; thought of him as, AND treated him as an animal, do you NOT think that would have affected my descendents and then me as well? Violence, addiction, these are intergenerational coping skills for people who are ripped from a community and not given any sense of self.
You don't have to agree, but you are welcome to be wrong.

Then you've just made your own personal declaration of fact while openly stating refusal to consider counter arguments. And therein are not member of this debate.

 

[rambot]

Then you've just made your own personal declaration of fact while openly stating refusal to consider counter arguments. And therein are not member of this debate.

I didn't say I refused to hear counter arguments. I said you can voice them but you'd be wrong. But that's only according to research. Did you want me to put up some research on intergenerational violence?

And I don't know if you've noticed but I HAVE been having discussions with people about what I've said here. So I'm not 100% sure why you are telling me I'm "not member of this debate". This thread has proved you wrong.

 

[Four Angels Standing]

It's presuming 272 slaves lived in order to have descendants. Or if they did have children at the time of this sale, those children survived the harsh realities of slavery.
If there are true direct descendants, not collateral descendants, of these slaves tax payer money should never be paid them. Rather, their attorneys should sue the Vatican. And all attorney fee's owing should be paid in a separate suit so that the descendants acquire a pure or whole settlement.
Being this Pope is a Jesuit he should concede to the demand for settlement of the wrong his brothers in Christ did centuries ago.

 

[Four Angels Standing]

I didn't say I refused to hear counter arguments. I said you can voice them but you'd be wrong.

Thank you.
This thread contains an article relating supposition and no final evidence conclusion.
This thread did not prove anyone wrong. Or right.

 

[Four Angels Standing]

Or until the playing field is level.

How exactly is that accomplished?
Do the direct descendants of free blacks that owned slaves owe direct descendants of their ancestors slaves today?

 

[rambot]

Thank you.
This thread contains an article relating supposition and no final evidence conclusion.
This thread did not prove anyone wrong. Or right.

You'll note I was addressing, directly the absolutely ludicrous comparison between slavery and your grandpa being owed 20$

 

[SummerMadness]

Do you agree with Pwnerer that slavery is "african culture"? If you don't I would imagine you agree with me that slavery is pretty common in most if not all human cultures.

Is there a part of this you disagree with?

Slavery has different forms. Chattel slavery is something that appeared with European colonialism, prior to that, unfree labor did not simply treat people as nothing more than property.

Pwnerer claimed a false link between American chattel slavery and west African nations, as there is no evidence this was a common practice there. The key is chattel, not slavery in general. Chattel slavery is distinct from slavery in the past, hence its abolition and debates surrounding the aftermath of its abolition continue in modern society. The shift from property to person is a substantial shift from prior eras that still treated slaves as people (albeit with fewer rights).

 

[nightflight]

Its understandable that Georgetown is doing this. A wrong was committed and they are trying to make it right. How could they have any integrity if they didn't?

 

[nightflight]

Chattel slavery is a specific servitude relationship where the slave is treated as the property of the owner. As such, the owner is free to sell, trade, or treat the slave as he would other pieces of property and the children of the slave often are retained as the property of the master.[12] There is evidence of long histories of chattel slavery in the Nile river valley and Northern Africa, but evidence is incomplete about the extent and practices of chattel slavery throughout much of the rest of the continent prior to written records by Arab or European traders.[12]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Africa#Chattel_slavery

 

[Rick Otto]

How about all of them?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_African_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

Any person regardless of race is undoubtedly better off in America than in any African country. It's called the third world for a reason.

Part of the reason is because we call ourselves "first".
Undoubtedly better materialistically, and then only generally.

 

[Four Angels Standing]

You'll note I was addressing, directly the absolutely ludicrous comparison between slavery and your grandpa being owed 20$

My grandpa is never an issue in this thread. Thank you.

 

[Four Angels Standing]

Its understandable that Georgetown is doing this. A wrong was committed and they are trying to make it right. How could they have any integrity if they didn't?

I would make the observation that if integrity was ever an issue in the case of Georgetown we wouldn't be having this discussion all these decades later and about this topic.

 

[rambot]

My grandpa is never an issue in this thread. Thank you.

*sigh* I was using the plural "you".

Thank you for going back and reading the post I was referring to and avoiding this ridiculous nonsequitor