1689 Federalism vs. Dispensationalism

[OzSpen]

I think the main question is can God break a promise?

And which promise do you think that is?

 

[SeventhValley]

A promise to decendents to me such as Abrahams would have to be actual Abrahams genetic decendents.

Now I see God's contacts as being able to be cancelled. Jewish people cut off as in Hyperdispensationalism which to me makes more sense than the contract spiritually being fufilled through the Christian church.
To me the contract was canceled and then a new contract was given to the gentiles allowing them to take over instead of just the initial grafted in status.

So we are now the chosen people.

 

[Keachian]

No charade with me. If you accuse dispensationalists of practising eisegesis, it behooves you to provide the evidence to demonstrate that.

I don't think that issues are as simple as you seem to be making them. This article presents a different perspective to the one you are giving: 'IS THE CHURCH (spiritual) ISRAEL?' This is the dispensational view.

Then there is the view which you are supporting:
'Israel & the Church: Who are God's chosen people?'

I also agree with your perspective. I am not a dispensationalist.

I think it is a charade to ask for reference that the distinction between the Church and Israel is the teaching of Dispensationalism. That it is eisegesis and dangerous at that simply follows from it not being found in Scripture. Chopping Scripture up so that it is no longer profitable for teaching and instruction in righteousness is not exegetical but eisegetical at its very core.

 

[Keachian]

A promise to decendents to me such as Abrahams would have to be actual Abrahams genetic decendents.

Now I see God's contacts as being able to be cancelled. Jewish people cut off as in Hyperdispensationalism which to me makes more sense than the contract spiritually being fufilled through the Christian church.
To me the contract was canceled and then a new contract was given to the gentiles allowing them to take over instead of just the initial grafted in status.

So we are now the chosen people.

Paul makes it clear in Gal that we are the offspring of Abraham by promise, I think in all cases of this it is important not to treat the Church as a merely Gentile endeavour, for it is made up of both Jew and Gentile and it is concerning to me that though Dispensationalists acknowledge this they still treat it as such.

 

[OzSpen]

A promise to decendents to me such as Abrahams would have to be actual Abrahams genetic decendents.

Now I see God's contacts as being able to be cancelled. Jewish people cut off as in Hyperdispensationalism which to me makes more sense than the contract spiritually being fufilled through the Christian church.
To me the contract was canceled and then a new contract was given to the gentiles allowing them to take over instead of just the initial grafted in status.

So we are now the chosen people.

So do you accept Galatians 3:29 as being true?

And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise (ESV).

 

[JM]

So are we going to continue with this charade of referencing...

You Sir have just been introduced to the fine art of sophistry with a dash of invincible ignorance!

 

[SeventhValley]

So do you accept Galatians 3:29 as being true?

Yes and no. On one hand I see where traditionalists are coming from. On the other in Galatians chapter 6 Paul says circumcision which marks the Abrahamic promise means nothing.

So it seems he was leading people from gentiles are as good as Jews to none of the promises of Abraham matter.

It is a tough call.

 

[JM]

The Abrahamic covenant was appended with circumcision when the physical land was promised. (see also Gen. 12, 15, 17) Circumcision was linked with the national identity of ethnic Israel. The land promise in the NT is revealed as a type for both the world and our heavenly Canaan.

"For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith." (Romans 4)

"But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city." (Hebrews 10)

So, "if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." And "neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature."

It is heart circumcision that counts!

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." (Jer. 31)

 

[SeventhValley]

For in Christ Jesus neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.-Gal 6:15

The old creation Israel seems to have been torn asunder otherwise Christians would have inherited physical Israel.

 

[SeventhValley]

Ephesians 3:4-8World English Bible (WEB)Close
4by which, when you read, you can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ; 5which in other generations was not made known to the children of men, as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; 6that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of his promise in Christ Jesus through the Good News, 7of which I was made a servant, according to the gift of that grace of God which was given me according to the working of his power. 8To me, the very least of all saints, was this grace given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,

 

[SeventhValley]

Ephesians 3:6 (WEB)
"that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of his promise in Christ Jesus through the Good News

 

[SeventhValley]

Romans 11:19-23 (WEB)
"You will say then, “Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.” True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don’t be conceited, but fear; for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off. They also, if they don’t continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again."

 

[Keachian]

The Abrahamic covenant was appended with circumcision when the physical land was promised. (see also Gen. 12, 15, 17) Circumcision was linked with the national identity of ethnic Israel. The land promise in the NT is revealed as a type for both the world and our heavenly Canaan.

"For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith." (Romans 4)

"But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city." (Hebrews 10)

So, "if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." And "neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature."

It is heart circumcision that counts!

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." (Jer. 31)

This sort of argument is also quite good in defending against the paedobaptists, though I feel it is still incredibly necessary that we be rooted in our covenant theology as it provides the greatest defense and reason as to why we do not baptise our infants.

 

[JM]

Abraham's Seed blog is worth checking out.

Abraham's Seed | “And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

 

[JM]

This sort of argument is also quite good in defending against the paedobaptists, though I feel it is still incredibly necessary that we be rooted in our covenant theology as it provides the greatest defense and reason as to why we do not baptise our infants.

I'm rereading Pascal Denault's work on 17th century Baptist theology.

 

[JM]

This sort of argument is also quite good in defending against the paedobaptists, though I feel it is still incredibly necessary that we be rooted in our covenant theology as it provides the greatest defense and reason as to why we do not baptise our infants.

Keachian, where ya at?