15 QUESTIONS FOR EVOLUTIONISTS

Truthfrees

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I have been watching CMIcreationstation on Youtube.

Here is a link to their 15 Questions for Evolutionists: http://creation.com/15-questions

I don't know yet if Creationists would agree with this material or not, so this thread may be based on wrong material, but for those who want to debate these 15 questions, here it is.

Will post CMIcreationstation's 16 videos on 15 questions for Evolutionists here:

1.

2.

3.

4.
 
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Papias

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This thread seems to be asking creationists, yet the 15 questions are asking evolution supporters. Do you want an echo chamber, or are you actually interested in the answers to the 15 questions? Many of them have simple answers that are well understood and taught in basic introductory biology courses.

In Christ-

Papias
 
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Truthfrees

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This thread seems to be asking creationists, yet the 15 questions are asking evolution supporters. Do you want an echo chamber, or are you actually interested in the answers to the 15 questions? Many of them have simple answers that are well understood and taught in basic introductory biology courses.

In Christ-

Papias
Not in this thread because this is for Creationists only to post their material.

I wanted to find out if this material is agreeable to Creationists.

OR do Creationists use different material?

But I will start a new thread right now for Evolutionists to answer these 15 questions.

I just don't know if Creationists would endorse this material or not so the new debate thread may be a waste of your time.
 
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Papias

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I just don't know if Creationists would endorse this material or not so the new debate thread may be a waste of your time.

Some will, some won't. Some creationists support nutcases like Kent Hovind, while others are OEC (Hugh Ross), or have other positions. About the only thing creationists agree on is that they dispute evolution.

But I will start a new thread right now for Evolutionists to answer these 15 questions.

Sounds like a good plan. : )

Papias
 
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Truthfrees

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These videos look to me like creation-science. I avoid creation-science because I know it is bogus science and bogus theology.
No problem.

I don't even know yet how the Creationists feel about this, so this stuff could be all wrong.

I'm also having trouble posting the videos here.

They keep jumbling up on me.

I've reposted them 4 times now and don't understand what's going on with them.
 
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Papias

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Not in this thread because this is for Creationists only to post their material.
.....
But I will start a new thread right now for Evolutionists to answer these 15 questions.

The 3 previous posts were moved from the creation materials thread to this debate thread.​

So then is this now the thread to discuss these (since it is now moved to the general section), or do you still intend this thread to be only for creationists and plan on starting a separate thread?

Overall, all of these are lines often repeated by creationists - so you can be assured that these are standard and common creationist arguments. Because they are common, their refutations are well known also. Some creationists won't agree with some of them, but that's true for anything.

In Christ - Papias
 
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Papias

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I don't even know yet how the Creationists feel about this, so this stuff could be all wrong.

Because these are pretty common creationist lines, I'll give some short science answers for them from a Christian standpoint (remember that most evolution supporters are Christian). We can have a longer discussion on any of them you don't understand or would like to discuss more.

I'm going from the list you posted from here: http://creation.com/15-questions (not the videos).

1. This underestimates the progress in abiogenesis research. The fact is that we've got a pretty good idea of several possible routes to life. We don't know which of these actually happened, and there are steps that are not fully understood yet - but that's the same situation with cancer (we don't know exactly how it starts), and no one is suggesting that cancer is poofed into existence by God. It's perfectly reasonable for a Christian to think that God poofed the first cell into existence, and it evolved from there. However, that's a blatantly God-of-the-gaps approach.
2. DNA formed from RNA, which formed from more basic nucleotide molecules. This is in many ways like #1. Because DNA (and early cells) don't fossilize well, we don't have a perfect record - just like you don't have a perfect record of how I got to work this morning. DNA is not a symbolic code - it works due to the shape of the molecules, so saying it needs an intelligent source is like saying that because I can use a stick to dig for ants, the stick must have had an intelligent source - it simply doesn't follow.
3. The fact that DNA makes new information is both well understood and well demonstrated.
Here are some basic types of mutations and how they work:

  • Duplication of a stretch of DNA. This is like accidentally copying part of a book twice. Example – when making a copy of a book that has chapters 1, 2, 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11, 12, you end up with a book that has chapters 1, 2, 3,4,5,6,7,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11, 12
  • Deletion of a base pair. AATCTGTC becomes ATCTGTC
  • Addition of base pair AATCTGTC becomes ACATCTGTC
  • Transposition (like a mirror) AATCTGTC becomes CTGTCTAA
All of these can have no effect, an effect which is selected for, or an affect which is selected against.

To add information, first, take a functional gene, and make an extra copy using the duplication mutation. That won’t hurt the organism, since the second copy is simply redundant. Then use any of the other mutation methods so as to make the second copy do something new. The organism still has the original copy doing whatever it is supposed to do, but now has the added ability of whatever the new gene does. New information, new functions, and new abilities can, in small steps, take us from a fish to a person.

4. "evolution" is taught as both natural selection + new information from mutations (see #3). Both are needed. It's a misrepresentation to ignore the new information from mutations.

5. The evolution of many biochemical pathways is well understood, including ones that have all "neccessary" components. This is because evolution often works by building up a complex system, then removing parts. Thus, it see the full path, one has to think of what would be added to the system, then removed (like scaffolding). This has been known for a century, and creationists still hide that fact from people. Also- #5 here has a quote mine (the practice of taking a quote out of context to mislead people - it's basically lying). I'll mention when they happen again, and leave it to you research each one (or ask if one in particular you don't understand).

6. This is another misrepresentation. Science works using methodological naturalism. That means that non-miraculous explanations are considered first (and miraculous ones are outside the realm of science). So when a question of how something came to be arises, non-miraculous routes are looked at first. You do the same thing every day. If your car doesn't start, you first consider naturalistic explanations (dead battery? no gas?), before deciding that the Hindu god Ganesh has possessed your alternator.

7. The evolution of multicellular life is well understood, with transitional forms like Volvox still alive today. You can find out quite a bit about it online. Here's a start: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB922.html

8. Sex has many advantages, and many transitional forms are well known (for instance, many marine invertebrates can both reproduce sexually and asexually - sex evolved from asexual creatures who first evolved the ability to reproduce sexually in addition, then when some lineages reproduced sexually practically all the time, the ability to reproduce asexually was lost).

9. This one states outright falsehoods - tons of transitional fossils are known, and many lineages have long lines of transitional fossils. As elsewhere, the question lies to you by using a quote mine to convince you that there aren't literally thousands of transitional fossils. Geologists have confirmed that there are many transitional fossils (I can post their statement if you like).

10. Again a blatant misrepresentation that even a first year biology student would be embarrassed to read. Evolution in no way requires things to change over time. Species evolve in response to environmental change. In a stable environment, a species is expected to stay relatively unchanged for long periods of time.

That's enough for now. Many (both the above and the others) can be answered by looking them up in the index to creationist claims: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html and other sources of actual biology.

Best-

Papias
 
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Hoghead1

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Walter Veith opened my eyes some years ago.
"the Genesis Conflict" series iirc.
He thoroughly debunked evolution, rendering it a silly conjecture.

Oh, he did, did he? Funny, how the majority of scientists don't seem to agree and were less than impressed by his arguments, which were all debunked, by the way. He sure must be way smarter than all these other experts, way smarter.
 
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Hieronymus

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Oh, he did, did he? Funny, how the majority of scientists don't seem to agree and were less than impressed by his arguments, which were all debunked, by the way. He sure must be way smarter than all these other experts, way smarter.
The majority of scientists subscribe to naturalism, they can't allow a divine foot in the door.
Maybe they're smarter though, but maybe not.
But obviously God has more explanatory power than dead unconscious things like the forces of nature causing data corruption.
 
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Hoghead1

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I recommend a non-Christian, who argues against evolution.

His material is non-inspired, so if you're used to reading scripture or other Christians, his writing is not like that, however it is factually correct. Since evolution must exist in the world of facts, it can be refuted in the world of factual knowledge.


Concerning the mathmatics against evolution, he cites "The Neutral Theory of Molecular Evolution".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutral_theory_of_molecular_evolution

And if you study the math yourself on this issue, you realize the impossibility of evolution based upon this. Things can change, they can degrade, and they can incorporate other genomes that exist, but they cannot create genetic material due to the limitations of information theory (the key argument at the heart of the mathematics.)

There is a prize related to this, if anyone can demonstrate the mechanism which creates information, demonstrating it is not evolution otherwise the prize would be won. Random + N.S. has been disproven as a mechanism to generate information, due to the limitations described in the Neutral Theory.

http://cosmicfingerprints.com/solve/

And this points to creationism because, in information theory, all information that exists, could not have arisen randomly. While evolution asserts this is exactly what happened, information theory puts forth this is impossible, using all known math/physics to substantiate this impossibility as proof. Whatever mechanism that exists which creates information, it is not a random mechanism.

And so the prize is for discovering the mechanism. If the mechanism were random + N.S. then the prize would be won already, but it's not won, because no one has observed this occurring.

The reason it does not occur is that to make data randomly, you must multiply probabilities.

N * N = A or N^2 = A

So when you string together a DNA strand it can become something like 1 out of a statistically "impossible" number, for each major mutation. Natural Selection will only take hold, if the whole protein strand is randomly achieved. 10% success, by the law of natural selection, achieves a 0% result. So coming close to the real deal information improvement, does not happen... the 10% will eventually be eroded because it has no advantage over 0%.

At least, Berlinski is one of the very few creation-science people with real credentials. I'll grant him that. And so he may be one of the better sources here. However, the fact remains that he has failed to convince science that he is right. His arguments against evolution have all been addressed and debunked. He provides no constructive alternative to evolution.
Also, I find it extremely arrogant when lay persons come along, play wannabe a scientist, and think they know more about science than the scientists.
 
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Hieronymus

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At least, Berlinski is one of the very few creation-science people with real credentials. I'll grant him that.
It's not about credentials, it's about explanatory power, plausibility, possibility, evidence, etcetera..
Butit's also about religion.
It's naturalism versus super-naturalism.
And since the majority of scientists subscribe to naturalistic models.... etcetera...
 
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Papias

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It's not about credentials, it's about explanatory power, plausibility, possibility, evidence, etcetera..
Butit's also about religion.
It's naturalism versus super-naturalism.
And since the majority of scientists subscribe to naturalistic models.... etcetera...

Wrong.
About half those scientists are Christians. Everyone - yourself included - uses methodological naturalism. That's the only kind of naturalism that scientists are expected to use.

OK, let's look at the difference between ontological naturalism and methodological naturalism.

Ontological naturalism is the belief that only the natural world exists, and that there is no supernatural god or gods. It is roughly equal to atheism, and is NOT required in science. In fact a huge chunk of scientists explicitly believe in God.

That's completely different from METHODOLOGICAL naturalism. Methodological naturalism means that one tests for natural explanations first, and if those have sufficient evidence, then supernatural explanations are superfluous (not that they are excluded). An example - if you woke up and your bedroom was freezing, you'd check the furnace, and the thermostat, see if they are turned on, have electric power, have a clear and not clogged filter, aren't set to a cold temperature, etc. You'd do all of those before you conducted an exorcism to scare away the god of cold air. That's methodological naturalism, and that's how we all operate every day on most things. That's also all that is required in science.

There are plenty of questions for which there isn't good evidence of a natural cause - such as "how do our minds give rise to our feeling of being happy". For questions where there isn't evidence, it's perfectly fine to invoke the supernatural. It's not science, but that's OK.

In the case of the age of fossils and the earth, there is tons of clear, unabiguous, and cross-confirmed evidence, so invoking a supernatural creation 6,000 years ago is like doing an exorcism to scare away the god of cold air before first checking the furnace. Methodological naturalism is not atheistic any more than math is. After all, 1+1 =2 doesn't include God anywhere, does it?

In Christ-

Papias
 
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Papias

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You were clear. and wrong. Scientists include Christians, and all of them treat evolution just like all other fields of study. You know, that atheistic algebra, atheistic medicine, atheistic gravity, atheistic physics, and atheistic chemistry.

All of them use methodological naturalism, just like you do, and just as the Vatican's observatory priests do. Just like the Catholic priests teaching classes do. To think that doing so somehow is atheistic or against God simply means that you are clueless about the difference between ontological naturalism (which many scientists reject) and methodological naturalism (which you yourself subscribe to).

maybe explain to me the difference between the two so I know you understand the difference?

In Christ
Papias
 
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It's not about credentials, it's about explanatory power, plausibility, possibility, evidence, etcetera..
Butit's also about religion.
It's naturalism versus super-naturalism.
And since the majority of scientists subscribe to naturalistic models.... etcetera...
As Papias points out, the vast majority of Christian scientists also accept evolution, so you can't argue that it's simply a matter of naturalism. As for explanatory power, what feature of the natural world has creationism ever explained? That is, where does creationism tell us why things are the way they are, rather than some other way?
 
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