101 Scientific Facts: The Bible-Creationism is accurate and true.

[RealityCheck01]

Yes, he didn't write that it was exactly 31.49999.

It is more that we understand that the Bible is inaccurate because the authors were human and made mistakes. In this

1. Probably rounded numbers to get that 30 and 10 cubit.
2. Did not realize made pi = 3.
3. Was not corrected by at least 1 other author.

 

[W2L]

It is more that we understand that the Bible is inaccurate because the authors were human and made mistakes. In this

1. Probably rounded numbers to get that 30 and 10 cubit.
2. Did not realize made pi = 3.
3. Was not corrected by at least 1 other author.

lol, I cant believe you are actually going to expect the bible to give exact numbers right down to the 64th of an inch. I bet many modern writings also fail to be so accurate in their measurements. Perhaps we might look to see measurements for any structure, written in any book or media, and see if it has the exact measurement, and if it doesn't we can say it tells lies. Get real, surely you can see that more times than not, no one actually uses exact measurements.

 

[RealityCheck01]

lol, I cant believe you are actually going to expect the bible to give exact numbers right down to the 64th of an inch.

Lol I cannot believe that you think that a accuracy of 64th of an inch measurement was the standard around 950 BC.

I expect a claim that the Bible is totally accurate to be debunked by the fact that the Bible in many instances is not accurate !

I expect a worker in brass touted as "filled with wisdom, and understanding, and cunning to work all works in brass" (1 Kings 7:14) to be able to report measurements to an accuracy of at least the length of his thumb (about a tenth of a cubit). So a bowl with a diameter of 10.0 cubits should have been reported by Hiram out of Tyre as having a circumference of 31.4 cubits. When and how that would be recorded is unknown.

No rational person would expect all of the Bible to be totally accurate though given its providence. The Books of Kings for example is based on several lost texts and was heavily edited. Add in the many transcriptions and translations and the possibility of a scribe somewhere, sometime copying a number like "31.4" as "30" is good. Read Hebrew numerals to see that 31 would be written as 2 glyphs for 30 and 1. But it does not say how fractions would be written.

 

[W2L]

Lol I cannot believe that you think that a accuracy of 64th of an inch measurement was the standard around 950 BC.

I expect a claim that the Bible is totally accurate to be debunked by the fact that the Bible in many instances is not accurate !

I expect a worker in brass touted as "filled with wisdom, and understanding, and cunning to work all works in brass" (1 Kings 7:14) to be able to report measurements to an accuracy of at least the length of his thumb (about a tenth of a cubit). So a bowl with a diameter of 10.0 cubits should have been reported by Hiram out of Tyre as having a circumference of 31.4 cubits. When and how that would be recorded is unknown.

No rational person would expect all of the Bible to be totally accurate though given its providence. The Books of Kings for example is based on several lost texts and was heavily edited. Add in the many transcriptions and translations and the possibility of a scribe somewhere, sometime copying a number like "31.4" as "30" is good. Read Hebrew numerals to see that 31 would be written as 2 glyphs for 30 and 1. But it does not say how fractions would be written.

The man you are referring to didn't write the scripture. That's like blaming a news publication for using approximate measurements instead of exact measurements. Let me give you an example. If the New York Times says that a certain building is 100 feet tall, when its actually 101' and 2.65" tall, do you say the NYT are lying?

 

[RealityCheck01]

The man you are referring to didn't write the scripture.

Read what I wrote:

I expect a worker in brass touted as "filled with wisdom, and understanding, and cunning to work all works in brass" (1 Kings 7:14) to be able to report measurements to an accuracy of at least the length of his thumb (about a tenth of a cubit). So a bowl with a diameter of 10.0 cubits should have been reported by Hiram out of Tyre as having a circumference of 31.4 cubits. When and how that would be recorded is unknown.

No one knows who wrote the Books of Kings.

And try to understand what the claim was. It is like someone claiming that a news publication always uses exact measurements.
Let me give you an example. If the claim is that the New York Times always uses exact measurements, the New York Times says that a certain building is 100 feet tall when its actually 101' and 2.65" tall, then any rational person will say that the claim is wrong !

I know that the Bible is full of errors and so getting these numbers wrong is not unexpected. The Bible is a "news publication" that used measurements that may have started as exact or approximate and became just wrong through transcription and translation errors.

 

[W2L]

Read what I wrote:

No one knows who wrote the Books of Kings.

And try to understand what the claim was. It is like someone claiming that a news publication always uses exact measurements.
Let me give you an example. If the claim is that the New York Times always uses exact measurements, the New York Times says that a certain building is 100 feet tall when its actually 101' and 2.65" tall, then any rational person will say that the claim is wrong !

I know that the Bible is full of errors and so getting these numbers wrong is not unexpected. The Bible is a "news publication" that used measurements that may have started as exact or approximate and became just wrong through transcription and translation errors.

You are applying modern mathematics and building techniques to an ancient writing that has been translated into English. No one knows how they used a cubit back then, in the province that this builder lived in. No one knows if they even used pi. I'm actually amazed that the measurement is as close as it is. Its within 18 inches or so out of 500 of 600 inches, but we cant even say for sure, because we don't know exactly how big a cubit was according to this builder. Different regions had different measurement values for a cubit as far as I understand. So the bible uses whole numbers without fractions. So what?

 

[RealityCheck01]

You are applying modern mathematics and building techniques ...

I am applying rational thought to an invalid claim: 30/10 is not pi so 30 and 10 are not accurate numbers and the Bible is not accurate.

You seem to have forgotten a major point about this error - the units do not matter. It is "pi =3" that is wrong. The bowl could have been furlongs in circumference and diameter and still be physically impossible !

It is wrong that I am "applying modern mathematics and building techniques". The value of pi to one percent of the true value has been known since the Egyptians and Babylonians (1900–1600 BC). Anyone can measure a cubit to at least an accuracy of their thumb length, i.e. to a tenth of a cubit. Egyptian cubit rods were divided even finer (28 fingers and then further subdivided to 16ths of a finger).
I am applying ancient mathematics and ancient building techniques .

But if you want to make the Bible even more inaccurate then you can assume that the unknown authors were ignorant of many things, e.g. the value of pi. I am more charitable - it is probably he transcription and translating that introduced errors, e.g. "31.4" being truncated to "30" by a scribe missing out characters.

 

[W2L]

I am applying rational thought to an invalid claim: 30/10 is not pi so 30 and 10 are not accurate numbers and the Bible is not accurate.

It is wrong that I am "applying modern mathematics and building techniques". The value of pi to one percent of the true value has been known since the Egyptians and Babylonians (1900–1600 BC). Anyone can measure a cubit to at least an accuracy of their thumb length, i.e. to a tenth of a cubit. Egyptian cubit rods were divided even finer (28 fingers and then further subdivided to 16ths of a finger).
I am applying ancient mathematics and ancient building techniques .

But if you want to make the Bible even more inaccurate then you can assume that the unknown authors were ignorant of many things, e.g. the value of pi. I am more charitable - it is probably he transcription and translating that introduced errors, e.g. "31.4" being truncated to "30" by a scribe missing out characters.

How do you know how builders measured things way back then? Look at carpentry just a couple hundred years ago, they didn't always measure things with a ruler. I have seen old video, black and white, which shows woodworkers building fine crafted furniture using only an ax, saw and a couple wood planes and or scrapers. They never measured anything either.

You don't know how they used a cubit way back then so its hard for you to make assumptions about it. I'm sure they didn't use pi.

 

[RealityCheck01]

How do you know how builders measured things way back then?

Because I bothered to learn about ancient cubit rods that are marked to small parts of a cubit and do not assume that ancient builders were so stupid that they could not use their tools !

Pi is a fundamental constant that constrains real world objects. If a person builds a bowl that is reported as 30 cubits in circumference by 10 cubits in diameter then it is a physically impossible bowl . That leaves several possibilities, e.g.

• The bowl never existed.
• The builder misreported the dimensions as physically impossible.
• The original authors of 1 Kings misreported the dimensions as physically impossible.
• The editors of 1 Kings changed the dimensions to be physically impossible.
• The scribes that copied 1 Kings copied the dimensions so that they became physically impossible.
• The translators that translated 1 Kings copied the dimensions so that they became physically impossible.

I also learned ho Hebrew numbers are written which makes the last 2 possibilities likely.

 

[W2L]

Because I bothered to learn about ancient cubit rods that are marked to small parts of a cubit and do not assume that ancient builders were so stupid that they could not use their tools !

Pi is a fundamental constant that constrains real world objects. If a person builds a bowl that is reported as 30 cubits in circumference by 10 cubits in diameter then it is a physically impossible bowl . That leaves several possibilities, e.g.

• The bowl never existed.
• The builder misreported the dimensions as physically impossible.
• The original authors of 1 Kings misreported the dimensions as physically impossible.
• The editors of 1 Kings changed the dimensions to be physically impossible.
• The scribes that copied 1 Kings copied the dimensions so that they became physically impossible.
• The translators that translated 1 Kings copied the dimensions so that they became physically impossible.

I also learned ho Hebrew numbers are written which makes the last 2 possibilities likely.

Its only impossible because you try to read the bible as if it were blueprints. You expect to see fractions. Lets say the writer said it was 31 and half cubits, the math would still be wrong according to you because you are using pi. Its a story, not a set of blueprints

 

[W2L]

So the measurements are off by 18 or so inches. Is that ID or OD? lol

 

[W2L]

@RealityCheck01
I followed your wiki links and here is what it said. At least wiki is more open minded than you it seems.


Quote from your Wiki article:

Well, it's a good stick to beat fundamentalists with if they bring it up, but otherwise a quite a silly thing to use to highlight the absurdity of Biblical inerrancy. The dimensions quoted clearly aren't that accurate. 10 cubits really means 10±0.5 cubits, giving a circumference of π*10±0.5 is 31.4±1.57 (to three significant figures) or anywhere between 29.8 cubits and 33.0 cubits. So, if 30 cubits is a good approximation for the circumference, it seems that the diameter was really closer to 9.5-9.7 cubits. But give the fundamentalist you're beating some credit if they understand "approximation" and "significant figures".

 

[W2L]

@RealityCheck01

I also apologize for my rudeness. I'm not very mature spiritually, and I hate hearing the bible get slandered. I was offended and I forgot my manners. I was wrong, I'm sorry.

 

[RealityCheck01]

Its only impossible because you try to read the bible as if it were blueprints

Once more time, W2L : The Bible being "blueprints" is not my claim - it is Bible literalists who claim that the Bible is literally true. The simple fact that a bowl recorded in the Bible as 30 cubits round by 10 cubits wide which is physically impossible means that their claim wrong.

I try to read the Bible as what it is - a collection of stories occasionally written from oral myths, from lost texts (especially true for the Books of Kings), with unknown edits, with a lot of missing archeological evidence (e.g. for Solomon or for the artefacts mentioned in 1 Kings), transcribed with errors, translated with errors, etc.

 

[RealityCheck01]

So the measurements are off by 18 or so inches.

As I stated before, Hiram out of Tyre was described as a competent artisan
5 August 2016 W2L: Hiram out of Tyre is described as "filled with wisdom, and understanding, and cunning to work all works in brass" (1 Kings 7:14).
15 August 2016 W2L: These physically impossible numbers make a claim that the Bible is literally true wrong.

Also:
15 August 2016 W2L: These physically impossible numbers make the Bible's statements about Hiram out of Tyre look like a lie.
But
10 August 2016 W2L: I believe that the numbers are just copying errors, e.g. dropping of glyphs from a Hebrew number turning 31.4 into 30.

What you believe may be different !

 

[RealityCheck01]

I followed your wiki links and here is what it said. ...

The Rational Wiki article I linked to on 4 August 2016 that you are just getting to reading a week later is explaining an apologia for 1 Kings 7:23-26 that supports exactly what have I have been saying - the Bible is fallible, which unfortunately needs a .

You may also want to read Science and History in the Bible for other errors in the Bible which also supports my claim that the Bible is fallible.

ETA: What some creationists claim abut the Bible is way beyond "fallible" as in the topic of this thread!
A list of cherry picked, quote mined, out of context Bible verses that a creationist author fantasizes about.

 

[W2L]

The Rational Wiki article I linked to on 4 August 2016 that you are just getting to reading a week later is explaining an apologia for 1 Kings 7:23-26 that supports exactly what have I have been saying - the Bible is fallible, which unfortunately needs a .

You may also want to read Science and History in the Bible for other errors in the Bible which also supports my claim that the Bible is fallible.

ETA: What some creationists claim abut the Bible is way beyond "fallible" as in the topic of this thread!
A list of cherry picked, quote mined, out of context Bible verses that a creationist author fantasizes about.

You're an atheist, of course you disagree with the bible. Of course you look for errors in everything. The bible isn't a science manual. Its a book of stories, proverbs, parables, prophecies, and good news (Gospel). You think you see errors, I see approximate numbers.

You also think that you can hurt my faith and make me feel stupid with your smileys, but I feel Gods love instead of that sting you meant for me. I am happy and content with the peace, love, faith and hope that I find in the Gospel. I would ask you to give yourself that same thing by accepting Gods promise. Anyway, I cant argue about this further, so you win. I give up.

 

[RealityCheck01]

You're an atheist, of course you disagree with the bible.

I can read, W2L, so I know what is written in the Bible. I do not disagree that the numbers 30 cubits and 10 cubits exist in 1 Kings 7:23-26!

Everyone knows about the real world where circles have a circumference to diameter ratio of pi. Thus everyone in the world knows that the 30 by 10 cubit in cauldron in 1 Kings 7:23-26 is physically impossible. The numbers are wrong. This is one of many errors in the Bible. The only issue is why did the wrong numbers get recorded?

The most probable cause is the rational one of a transcription or translation error. There are other possibilities, e.g. the cauldron story may have been made up by someone that actually thought the dimensions were possible or the story when through an oral phase where the numbers were messed up. That the Books of Kings looks to be based on lost texts makes it impossible to know what the actual cause of the error was.

11 August 2016 W2L: cubit rods split into 28 fingers and then further subdivided to 16ths of a finger which is an accuracy of 0.002 cubits!

5 August 2016 W2L: Hiram out of Tyre is described as "filled with wisdom, and understanding, and cunning to work all works in brass" (1 Kings 7:14).
15 August 2016 W2L: These physically impossible numbers make a claim that the Bible is literally true wrong.
15 August 2016 W2L: These physically impossible numbers make the Bible's statements about Hiram out of Tyre look like a lie. Ditto for asserting that that Hiram could not measure to better than 0.5 cubits (see above). But
10 August 2016 W2L: I believe that the numbers are just copying errors, e.g. dropping of glyphs from a Hebrew number turning 31.4 into 30.

 

[SteveB28]

Its only impossible because you try to read the bible as if it were blueprints. You expect to see fractions. Lets say the writer said it was 31 and half cubits, the math would still be wrong according to you because you are using pi. Its a story, not a set of blueprints

It is supposed to be a perfect story though, according to you lot.

And yet, we have rabbits chewing the cud, we have bats described as birds, we have some insects with four legs, we have a laughable prescription for breeding coloured goats, we have the assertion that all the kingdoms of the earth can be seen from one high point on earth.

If you're going to tout this thing as being the perfect word of a perfect being, we should be able to expect something better than these juvenile scratchings......

 

[Ophiolite]

You're an atheist, of course you disagree with the bible.

It is perfectly possible for an atheist to agree with the Bible. The disagreement between an atheist and yourself relates to interpretation.

You see the Bible as the literal word of God.

The atheist sees the Bible as an interesting blend of myth, legend, poetry, moral guidance and history.

If you were to claim that the Bible provides guidance on depressurisation schedules for scuba divers then anyone sensible would disagree with such a claim. That would not mean they were disagreeing with the Bible.