10 Top Errors of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture View

[Choose Wisely]

Naah, that's just Hollywood making money from cool Sci-Fi. Seriously, someone's trying to justify their theology from the existence of Sci-Fi stories as a Satanic plot?

Oh no, the Bible proves the pre trib rapture. I'm just trying to help those that don't understand the Bible to open their eyes and look around. There is a reason there are so many stories about alien abductions.

The Rapture is itself a metaphor simply of being away from the judgement. It's 'up', away from down on the ground where Judgement is falling. It will be as in the days of Noah. When the rains came and Noah was lifted 'up' on the waters, he was lifted away from judgement.

Exactly, Noah is taken away.

Also note that there was no 'tribulation'. If anything, Jesus explains that in the days of Noah they were 'marrying and giving in marriage' and generally partying up and living life as if everything were normal. Where's this tribulation? Answer: there isn't one. The were all 'party on dude' as it is now, despite the 'normal' background news (that everyone blocks out) of wars and rumours of wars, tsunamis, volcanoes, natural disasters, etc.

Exactly. The tribulation is after the pre trib rapture. Thank you for proving my point.

The reality is that Amillennial eschatology is MORE urgent than other systems. It's because Jesus could return on the FINAL and ETERNAL judgement day at any moment. Dispensationalists and pre-tribs believe there are all these special times coming when people might get SUCH a warning as to turn and pick up their bibles (as in Tim LaHaye's Pre-trib "Left Behind series") and repent. Not so in Amil eschatology.

You really have to work to fall into the Amil trap.

 

[John 07]

a 10 year old
Phil LaSpino

 

[John 07]

I'm just sick and tired of people playing 'Nostradamus' with the biblical text. This site is full of 10 thousand conversations based on the wrong premise.

true, true, true

 

[eclipsenow]

Interpreter, you interpretation is wrong. "Caught up," in 1 Thes.4:17, means to be caught away. The word rapture is the Latin equivalent, "caught up, or caught away." If you find a German Bible, and a Bible in Latin, you will find the word Rapture.

The English had no word for the Latin, "Rapture," but "caught up" means the same thing. So your comments are incorrect, and your words have been raptured away as so much dust in the wind.

Phil LaSpino

I can agree with "Rapture" as 'caught away'... caught away from the Judgement that is happening on Judgement Day, the Last Day, the time when the living and dead encounter our Holy God in all His Wrath and Judgement and fierce anger against sin, and all His forgiveness and blessing poured out to those of us who are in Christ! That reading of "Rapture" I can agree with, because it agrees with Jesus who said that when he returned it would be like the days of Noah. People would be partying on, and then Noah was taken up and DISASTER for the rest!

But note: the rest did not linger for 7 years! No. They were judged within the week.

I don't believe in a secret rapture that is somehow separate from Judgement Day and the End of this world and beginning of the new Heaven and Earth. I don't believe in it even though there were a few cook 70's Christian rock songs. (I wish we'd all been ready). I don't believe in it even though Tim LaHaye sells funny books about being "Left Behind". I don't believe in it because a separate rapture is just not in the bible, period.

 

[interpreter]

Interpreter, you interpretation is wrong. "Caught up," in 1 Thes.4:17, means to be caught away. The word rapture is the Latin equivalent, "caught up, or caught away." If you find a German Bible, and a Bible in Latin, you will find the word Rapture.

The English had no word for the Latin, "Rapture," but "caught up" means the same thing. So your comments are incorrect, and your words have been raptured away as so much dust in the wind.

Phil LaSpino

No matter what you call it, there is no rapture.

 

[LaSpino3]

Eclipsenow, All I have to say, there is no secret rapture, where do you get this stuff from? The main problem I can see with your understanding of Revelation is, you have not learned to separate the following three groups, and how God is going to deal with each group in a very different way.

1. Christian. Both Jew and Gentile believers. Under grace, loved of God, all sins forgiven, His future Bride. These will not suffer God's wrath, and vengeance in the 70th week, meaning the 7 years of tribulation. Why would they if God loves us?

2. The (unbelieving) Jews by blood to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; you know, the 12 tribes; those who came out of Egypt, those who put Jesus on the cross. The first 69 weeks of Daniel's prophesy have passed for them. Each of the 69 weeks, had certain things in common. The included the Jewish people, the land, their enemies, and God's judgment on them. One week remains, we call it the 70th week of Daniel's prophesy. It will include the same ingredients as the first 69. The unbelieving Jews, the land, Israel) their enemies, and God's judgment on them.

There will be a few other hand picked players, as in angels, two witnesses, and the 144,000 Jews, a few beasts, etc. The Christian community, the Bride is not one of them.

Dan.9:24, "Seventy weeks (70) are determined upon thy (Daniel's people the Jews) and upon the holy city (Jerusalem,) to finish the transgression = (violators of the divine law,) and to make an end of sins (yet future,) and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness."

The end of a Christian's sin comes the moment we become believers by faith in Jesus, the cross, and finished work of the cross. For us there is no more sin. But for the rest of the world, and unbelieving Jews, God will deal with it.

When God was behind the Jews, he called them "My people," When angry, He would say, "Your people, as in Daniel's people, and He also did it with Moses."

The 3ed group.

3. The (unbelieving) Gentile nations. The enemies of God, the enemies of the Jews, by blood, and the enemies to the Christian community.

After the church is raptured, what is left are, #2, and # 3.

Until you understand the players, forget trying to understand Revelation. Lay your framework for the understanding of Revelation by beginning with the O.T. covenants yet to be fulfilled, God's curses, and promises for the Jews, and His yet future blessings for them. Especially Daniel, Ezekiel (dry bones,) Jeremiah, Hosea, etc. You have to dissect these prophesies, not skim over them like so many do. If you don't understand/do this, you will never make sense of Revelation.

Revelation is a drawing together of all the O.T. prophesies, and promises made by God to the Jews, with some vinegar added, but for desert, apple pie and ice cream even for them.

Don't be left at the station holding your bag looking up at the "caught away church" being led away by Jesus Christ into heaven. Because if you do, your going to meet, face to face with the 4 horsemen.

Phil LaSpino

 

[zeke37]

phil you misunderstand what "resurrection" of the dead means

it has nothing to do with GOING TO heaven.

it's the opposite...like pre trib rapture is opposite the truth.

 

[zeke37]

No matter what you call it, there is no rapture.

questions....

is the rapture doctrine the only reason why you have ripped out Paul's writings out of your bible?

without calling it "rapture"; (i dislike the word too)
do you believe in a future Coming of Christ?
if so;
do you believe that the dead in Christ are raised at His future Coming?
do you believe in a gathering of believers at that future Coming?

because Paul never said we go up to heaven and miss the trib...
even to a futurist.

he just did not say or teach that.

PEOPLE misunderstand his words to their own destruction.

Paul taught what Jesus did, in Mat29-31.

 

[zeke37]

Eclipsenow, All I have to say, there is no secret rapture, where do you get this stuff from? The main problem I can see with your understanding of Revelation is, you have not learned to separate the following three groups, and how God is going to deal with each group in a very different way.

1. Christian. Both Jew and Gentile believers. Under grace, loved of God, all sins forgiven, His future Bride. These will not suffer God's wrath, and vengeance in the 70th week, meaning the 7 years of tribulation. Why would they if God loves us?

Phil,
the tribulation is not the wrath of God.
this is easily proven...

Babylon falls before the wrath of God is poured out. 18:4
and folks are called out of Babylon THEN, not years earlier.

1And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
​

the wrath falls on those that are "taken/deceived" by the beast. Rev16

1And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
​

the wrath follows Jesus' Coming in Rev19:15

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
​

2. The (unbelieving) Jews by blood to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob;

neither Abraham , Isaac nor Jacob were "Jewish"

you know, the 12 tribes;

tewlve, not one. only one was "Jewish"

those who came out of Egypt, those who put Jesus on the cross. The first 69 weeks of Daniel's prophesy have passed for them. Each of the 69 weeks, had certain things in common. The included the Jewish people, the land, their enemies, and God's judgment on them. One week remains, we call it the 70th week of Daniel's prophesy. It will include the same ingredients as the first 69. The unbelieving Jews, the land, Israel) their enemies, and God's judgment on them.

it's not just about the "Jews"

There will be a few other hand picked players, as in angels, two witnesses,

included among the two witnesses, are the two churches.

candlesticks=churches

and the 144,000 Jews,

the 144000 are not "Jews"
12000 of them are.

a few beasts, etc. The Christian community, the Bride is not one of them.

lol to that.
we are all here for it...
pre trib is a lie.
Saints in the NT means Christians. Rev13
those that have the testimony of Jesus Christ are Christians. Rev12
candlesticks are churches. Rev1/11
lol.

Dan.9:24, "Seventy weeks (70) are determined upon thy (Daniel's people the Jews) and upon the holy city (Jerusalem,) to finish the transgression = (violators of the divine law,) and to make an end of sins (yet future,) and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness."

"thy people" either refers to "Jews" or "Israel"
and since Michael is the angel for Israel, not just Judah,
you are incorrect yet again.

The end of a Christian's sin comes the moment we become believers by faith in Jesus, the cross, and finished work of the cross.

balogna.,...look around this foum....
while that might be the end goal, the disciples sinned after they believed
Peter chopping off ears, denying Christ, Thomas doubting...
even a few that left the faith...
how about Annias and his wife killed by the Holy Spirit?

most, if not every Christian that belives in Christ, still sins.
fact is, that many of us will have their portion with the hypocrites.
to many He will say, i don't know you

For us there is no more sin. But for the rest of the world, and unbelieving Jews, God will deal with it.

i wish it were so...
the whole point of the Millennium is to refine Christians that still sinned after being born again.

When God was behind the Jews, he called them "My people," When angry, He would say, "Your people, as in Daniel's people, and He also did it with Moses."

doesn't matter about nationality...if God is made at you.
if He's not mad at you, you are "His" people.
if He's not mad at you, you could be at ground zero for His wrath
and not feel a thing.

The 3ed group.

3. The (unbelieving) Gentile nations. The enemies of God, the enemies of the Jews, by blood, and the enemies to the Christian community.

you forget the many gentiles that have not heard the gospel even today.
remote villages, Islands, far north, Muslim and communist contries...

a person will not be our enemy, in Christ,
if they have not yet even heard the Gospel.
if they reject the Gospel, then sure.

After the church is raptured, what is left are, #2, and # 3.
the church is raptured on the very last day,
after the dead in Christ are brought from heaven
and are raised back to life here on earth again.

everyone stays for the entire trib and wrath of God
1,2,3....1 won't be affected negatively by God's wrath.
they will be "part" of it.

Until you understand the players, forget trying to understand Revelation.

friend, you don't understand the players.
until you realize the difference between Israel and Jews, and who Israel is today,
you'll never come close to understanding eschatology.

Lay your framework for the understanding of Revelation by beginning with the O.T. covenants yet to be fulfilled,

like to all the tribes, not just to Jews.

God's curses, and promises for the Jews,

and to Israel too...

and His yet future blessings for them. Especially Daniel, Ezekiel (dry bones,)

my forum namesake...
(not jews btw)

Jeremiah, Hosea, etc. You have to dissect these prophesies, not skim over them like so many do. If you don't understand/do this, you will never make sense of Revelation.

most all of Rev is repeated in the OT prophets, more than half are direct quotes

Revelation is a drawing together of all the O.T. prophesies, and promises made by God to the Jews, with some vinegar added, but for desert, apple pie and ice cream even for them.

man, you gotta take those "Jewish" glasses off Bro.
it's ISRAEL, not just "JEWS"

what is easy to see in those OT prophets, is that Judah and ISrael have seperate prophesy's in the same chapter even.

that should open your eyes, but...ift prob. won't.

Don't be left at the station holding your bag looking up at the "caught away church" being led away by Jesus Christ into heaven. Because if you do, your going to meet, face to face with the 4 horsemen.

Phil LaSpino

the church is not led away by Jesus to heaven.
you cannot show that at all.

1Thes4 shows that the dead COME FROM heaven at the rapture, not go to heaven.

God defines candlesticks to mean churches in Rev1
and we see 2 candlesticks against the beast in Rev11

"saints" in the NT means Christians. Rev13

"elect" in the NT means Christians.

and "having the testimony of Jesus Christ" means Christians too.

the wrath of God is poured out after the tribulation,.
the wrath of God is NOT the tribulation.

to say otherwise on any of these easily provable points, is simply IGNORANT

 

[interpreter]

questions....

is the rapture doctrine the only reason why you have ripped out Paul's writings out of your bible?

It's the main reason.

without calling it "rapture"; (i dislike the word too)
do you believe in a future Coming of Christ?

The second coming was in 312 AD when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, and Jesus came into power (through St. Constantine who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow.
But I do not rule out a third coming which is hinted at in chapters 19 and 20.

if so;
do you believe that the dead in Christ are raised at His future Coming?

No, only the martyrs are raised from the dead.

do you believe in a gathering of believers at that future Coming?

The gathering of the Church occurred in 325AD when Constantine sent his messengers with a trumpet and gathered all the Church together, to Nicea.

 

[zeke37]

i know what you believe with regards to the past.
i was specific about the questions pertaining to the future.

your "main reason" is IMO flawed,
because as a post trib futurist, i see paul as teaching in 1Thes4
as what Jesus taught about His Coming in the Gospels.

same thing.
no "up" or "pre trib escapism off of the planet"
that is not what paul wrote.
it's what some people think he meant,
but not the majority
Paul was teaching in 1Thes4 on the same Coming that John teaches of in Rev19

do you think Jesus literally returned and landed on earth in the 4th century?
do you think the dead in Christ were raised/resurrected back then?

what do you make of Rev11 after reading Rev19?

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. 17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;



15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

 

[eclipsenow]

Eclipsenow, All I have to say, there is no secret rapture, where do you get this stuff from? The main problem I can see with your understanding of Revelation is, you have not learned to separate the following three groups, and how God is going to deal with each group in a very different way.

1. Christian. Both Jew and Gentile believers. Under grace, loved of God, all sins forgiven, His future Bride. These will not suffer God's wrath, and vengeance in the 70th week, meaning the 7 years of tribulation. Why would they if God loves us?

2. The (unbelieving) Jews by blood to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; you know, the 12 tribes; those who came out of Egypt, those who put Jesus on the cross. The first 69 weeks of Daniel's prophesy have passed for them. Each of the 69 weeks, had certain things in common. The included the Jewish people, the land, their enemies, and God's judgment on them. One week remains, we call it the 70th week of Daniel's prophesy. It will include the same ingredients as the first 69. The unbelieving Jews, the land, Israel) their enemies, and God's judgment on them.

There will be a few other hand picked players, as in angels, two witnesses, and the 144,000 Jews, a few beasts, etc. The Christian community, the Bride is not one of them.

Dan.9:24, "Seventy weeks (70) are determined upon thy (Daniel's people the Jews) and upon the holy city (Jerusalem,) to finish the transgression = (violators of the divine law,) and to make an end of sins (yet future,) and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness."

The end of a Christian's sin comes the moment we become believers by faith in Jesus, the cross, and finished work of the cross. For us there is no more sin. But for the rest of the world, and unbelieving Jews, God will deal with it.

When God was behind the Jews, he called them "My people," When angry, He would say, "Your people, as in Daniel's people, and He also did it with Moses."

The 3ed group.

3. The (unbelieving) Gentile nations. The enemies of God, the enemies of the Jews, by blood, and the enemies to the Christian community.

After the church is raptured, what is left are, #2, and # 3.

Until you understand the players, forget trying to understand Revelation. Lay your framework for the understanding of Revelation by beginning with the O.T. covenants yet to be fulfilled, God's curses, and promises for the Jews, and His yet future blessings for them. Especially Daniel, Ezekiel (dry bones,) Jeremiah, Hosea, etc. You have to dissect these prophesies, not skim over them like so many do. If you don't understand/do this, you will never make sense of Revelation.

Revelation is a drawing together of all the O.T. prophesies, and promises made by God to the Jews, with some vinegar added, but for desert, apple pie and ice cream even for them.

Don't be left at the station holding your bag looking up at the "caught away church" being led away by Jesus Christ into heaven. Because if you do, your going to meet, face to face with the 4 horsemen.

Phil LaSpino

With respect, the problem you have with understanding how this all fits together is you are using the OT to interpret the NT, and the less clear parts of the NT (Revelation) to interpret the clearer parts of the NT. That's back to front and upside down.

1. My first assumption when dealing with how the bible fits together is that the Spirit filled Apostles, and the Son of God himself!, interpret the OT for us. They had a far clearer and more perfectly realised understanding of the Kingdom of God than the OT prophets. They had Jesus standing there with them, telling them the Kingdom of God was right under their noses! (Jesus himself embodied the Kingdom).

2. My second assumption is that I interpret the less-clear picture language of Revelation through the lens of the clearer parts of Scripture. So if Jesus says there are only 2 groups on Judgement Day, the sheep and the goats, then there are only 2 groups, not 3! You would have him talking about the sheep and the goats and the wilderbeast! But it's just not in the texts! Please use the clearest statements from the NT to interpret the less clear. And to approach each genre with the appropriate literary tools. Revelation is full of biblical imagery taken from the OT and NT. Use that imagery alone, and don't go trying to interpret some biblical image with modern day events. That's the way John wanted people to read it, not wondering whether 'grasshoppers' might be USA helicopter gunships! (For example).

3. My third paradigm is that us Christians are the Kingdom of God now. The NT Kingdom of God is made up of believing Jews and Gentiles, so that together, all Israel may be saved. That's us. That's the greater kingdom of God! What an exciting promise to belong to.

The rest of the NT is just so clear that we are living through the tribulations now, and have been for 2000 years, and that everything necessary has already been done. The Last Day approaches! Indeed, it could be tonight.

It's time to share the gospel and stop messing around with silly end-times programs and dates and '3 groups of people'.

 

[LaSpino3]

Eclipsenow, I am confused. Right now, I calim there are three groups.

1. Christian. Both Jew and Gentile believers. Under grace, loved of God, all sins forgiven, His future Bride, the raptured ones.

2. The (unbelieving) Jews by blood to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; Those who are being drawn back to the land today, now.

3. The (unbelieving) Gentile nations. The enemies of God, the enemies of the Jews, by blood, and the enemies to the Christian community.

When church is raptured, Lets see, 3 - 1 = 2. Hmmmm Sheeps and goats.

Phil LaSpino

 

[eclipsenow]

Eclipsenow, I am confused. Right now, I calim there are three groups.

1. Christian. Both Jew and Gentile believers. Under grace, loved of God, all sins forgiven, His future Bride, the raptured ones.

2. The (unbelieving) Jews by blood to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; Those who are being drawn back to the land today, now.

3. The (unbelieving) Gentile nations. The enemies of God, the enemies of the Jews, by blood, and the enemies to the Christian community.

When church is raptured, Lets see, 3 - 1 = 2. Hmmmm Sheeps and goats.

Phil LaSpino

Are you actually trying to say the "Sheep and the Goats" is a different event to the "Day of the Lord?" in 1 Thessalonians and a number of other places? Surely the emphasis of Jesus parables is that there is no other way to be saved than through him, and that he is the divisive figure of history, and that one either belongs to him or doesn't? I don't see room for any other group. The NT Kingdom of God is those who believe in Jesus, period. You're in or out. That's the gospel. Us Christians are the Kingdom now. Read Romans and Galatians and Hebrews. There's nothing else, and no other way.

Indeed, there will still be Christians when the Lord returns on Judgement Day! There is no other return, no 'fly by' where he grabs us up and then leaves the earth running for 7 years or whatever else you have in your timetables. The Day of the Lord = Judgement Day = New Heavens and New Earth = the end of this world and beginning of the next. It's all the one event. See below.

WE (us Christians) are still here when it happens.
WE will be with the Lord forever. The battle is over when he returns.
AND....
WE will survive the judgement that occurs at the same time as his return!



1 Thessalonians 4

13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest, who have no hope. 14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 5
The Day of the Lord
1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

He's talking to Christians who are 'of the day' and so will not be 'surprised'. There's no knowing when these things will happen, but we are of the day. We will be safe. If we are truly trusting in the Lord for our salvation, we will be safe. He will give us the right character that is bearing fruit so that we are the 'prepared virgins' and 'sheep' of Matt 25.

Now, in case you want to try and argue that 1 Thess 4 and 5 are talking about 2 separate things, the 'return of Christ' (rapture) and 'Day of the Lord' (judgement day), check this out.

John, who wrote revelation, links a few things together.

The "Last Day" IS the judgement!


John 12:48
48 There is a JUDGE for those who reject me and do not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the LAST DAY.

Last Day = Judgement.

But it is also the day of the resurrection!

John explains that the LAST DAY is when us Christians are raised to eternal life.

John 6:39
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

And again...
John 11:24
24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Woah! That throws a spanner in the works. The dead rise on the Last Day, but return with the Lord in the clouds in 1 Thess 4? Could it be the Last Day = Judgement Day = Dead raised = New Heavens and New Earth?

Of course!

John 5
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Ooops, there's those 2 groups again (not 3), righteous and unrighteous, coming out of the graves to be Judged.

And here's another thing. It's the New Heavens and New Earth!

Luke 20:35
35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage,

There it is again, we are raised for the age to come. No in between millennium but THE age to come!

2 groups again...
Luke 17
24 For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

Note that there is no 1000 year gap between Noah being 'taken up' and judgement!

See also Mt 13:24-29 for the Parable of the Sower which shows the harvester will "First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn." There's no separate rapture or 'collecting' of the weeds, but it is the one and same event. Collection and burning. See verses 40-43 which clearly explain that the Kingdom of God will not have any sin, which clearly does not allow any normal 'mortals' to live in the New Age.

2 Peter 3:3-10
3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly....
....10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare....
...13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

Last Day = Last Trumpet = Resurrection = Age to Come = No marriage & no babies = No Mortals = Judgement Day! = 'in His Day' = Day of Lord = New Heavens and New Earth!

Can it be any clearer? It all happens at once, suddenly, when life is going along more or less 'normally'. There is no warning. And it is instantaneous!

 

[LaSpino3]

Eclipsenow, you need to do something for me. I had asked you a question (last post of mine,) are there three groups of people now, today, that must be considered in the light of Bible prophesy.

If you can't agree with me on that, how can I continue with my explanation.

1. There is only one rapture of the church, 1 Thes.4:17.

2. Resurrection, and rapture are not the same. There will be three resurrection.

The first having taken place in Matt.27. Read it carefully, note words and phrases like "arose," "After, His (Jesus) resurrection," those raised are called saints. These had to be O.T. believers because there was no Christian church, the Gentiles were still outside looking in, the Holy Spirit had not been given yet, and the apostles were in denial.
The word arose used in Matt.27, indicates they will never die again, its the same Greek used concerning Jesus resurrection.

The next resurrection will be the church, and with those who are alive will be raptured, this is still yet future, 1 Thes.4:17.

The third resurrection will take place after the 7 years. Consider the text of Rev.20:4, carefully. These who are resurrected will NOT have received the mark of the beast. It appears in the text that all will die who do not receive the mark. This goes along with, Rev.6:9-10. These who were seen by John under the altar of heaven, meaning buried in the earth, and like Able, their blood (souls) cried out for revenge. Ver.11, They are told, "Rest yet for a little season (7 years) until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed (those who do not receive the mark) as they were."

To not receive the mark, is a salvation, not of faith, but of works. Never is the church, meaning Christians, saved by any form of personal decision except to believe by faith. Those under the altar, are O.T. saints, who believed God. People like Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and millions of others who believed God. Christians are never told to make a choice to do anything but believe.

Note, those who have (NOT) received the mark of the beast will be killed. Now the text gives no indication that anyone is still alive who did not receive the mark.

Examine this closely, never is the church called sheep, never. This was a term used for the Jewish people only. Paul never uses it regards to the Gentiles. Never is the idea of Jesus being King over the church, never. Paul never tells the Gentiles that Jesus is their King. If he is King over His bride, then we cannot be co-heirs with him, nor could we sit on the throne with Him, neither can we judge with him. No, He is the King of the Jews.

King of Kings, Rev.19:16, In the context of the verse Jesus is going out to conquer the nations, and to rule them with a rod of iron, and to tread the winepress of His wrath. None of these have anything to do with His bride.

At least examine this first before you reply. I will be happy to answer any questions. But make them clear, one question at a time; and if a verse is in question; give me your thoughts first on that particular verse. I hope this helps.

Phil LaSpino

 

[eclipsenow]

Eclipsenow, you need to do something for me. I had asked you a question (last post of mine,) are there three groups of people now, today, that must be considered in the light of Bible prophesy.

If you can't agree with me on that, how can I continue with my explanation. Phil LaSpino

You can't. A few posts ago I asked you to do something for me. I put up my list of presuppositions when approaching the bible in the first place! I think it would be helpful to discuss your biblical presuppositions before we start trading verses. What 'glasses' do you wear when you approach the bible? Which books and verses take precedence over others?

Here are my presuppositions; what are yours?

Once again...

1. My first assumption when dealing with how the bible fits together is that the Spirit filled Apostles, and the Son of God himself!, interpret the OT for us. They had a far clearer and more perfectly realised understanding of the Kingdom of God than the OT prophets. They had Jesus standing there with them, telling them the Kingdom of God was right under their noses! (Jesus himself embodied the Kingdom).

2. My second assumption is that I interpret the less-clear picture language of Revelation through the lens of the clearer parts of Scripture. So if Jesus says there are only 2 groups on Judgement Day, the sheep and the goats, then there are only 2 groups, not 3! You would have him talking about the sheep and the goats and the wilderbeast! But it's just not in the texts! Please use the clearest statements from the NT to interpret the less clear. And to approach each genre with the appropriate literary tools. Revelation is full of biblical imagery taken from the OT and NT. Use that imagery alone, and don't go trying to interpret some biblical image with modern day events. That's the way John wanted people to read it, not wondering whether 'grasshoppers' might be USA helicopter gunships! (For example).

3. My third paradigm (from the various verses on the Kingdom of God in the NT) is that us Christians are the Kingdom of God now. There simply is no 3rd group. The NT Kingdom of God is made up of believing Jews and Gentiles, so that together, all Israel may be saved. That's us. James writes to the '12 tribes', but he's obviously writing to the church. That's us again! I could quote dozens and dozens of verses that back us Christians as being the Kingdom of God now. Exclusively. There's no other name under heaven by which we can be saved! There's no other contract by which we can be saved! There's no other set of prophecies to be fulfilled that might include other people! All of humanity must be saved by trusting in Jesus, as he was the Kingdom of God incarnate, in the flesh! When Jesus says "The Kingdom of God has come" he is saying it's here, right under your nose! That's the greater kingdom of God! What an exciting promise to belong to.

 

[LaSpino3]

You can't. A few posts ago I asked you to do something for me. I put up my list of presuppositions when approaching the bible in the first place! I think it would be helpful to discuss your biblical presuppositions before we start trading verses. What 'glasses' do you wear when you approach the bible? Which books and verses take precedence over others?

You wrote, "Here are my presuppositions; what are yours?"

Phil replies, "I don't have any presuppositions, I don't suppose anything. I gather information; who is speaking, who they are speaking to, examine text, look at the context, time, etc. I don't draw any conclusions until I understand what is being said.

You wrote, My first assumption when dealing with how the bible fits together is that the Spirit filled Apostles, and the Son of God himself!, interpret the O.T. for us."

Phil replies, "Its a bogus comment. It's on us, the Holy Spirt is our guide, and our teacher.

John 5:39, "Jesus said, "Search the scriptures." We are to search the scriptures.

Rev.1:3, "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of This prophecy." We are to read, and hear.

2 Tim.2:15, "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed." We are to study.

Isa.34:16, "Seek ye out the book of the LORD and read:" We are to seek out the information.

You wrote, "They had a far clearer and more perfectly realized understanding of the Kingdom of God than the O.T. prophets."

Phil replies, Half of your comments are incorrect. Speaking of the apostles,

Mark 9:32, "But they (the apostles) understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him."

Luke 2:50, "And they (the apostles) understood not the saying which he (Jesus) spake unto them."

It took 21 years before Peter understood that the Gentiles were to be part of the kingdom, as well as other Jewish disciples.

And there are other verses. You can see the end results of their lack of understanding when they, the apostles,

Matt.26:56, "Then all the disciples forsook (abandoned) him (Jesus.)" Why? because they understood nothing. Even when they were told Jesus was alive, they still did not believe.

You wrote, "My second assumption is that I interpret the less-clear picture language of Revelation through the lens of the clearer parts of Scripture. So if Jesus says there are only 2 groups on Judgement Day, the sheep and the goats, then there are only 2 groups, not 3!"

Phil replies, "Let me see if I can approach this a bit differently. I hope you know what it means to be adopted in, or grafted into.

There are two groups. Unbelieving Jews. Grafted into these unbelieving Jews will be unbelieving Gentiles, group one, you will see these in, Rev.20:11-12-13-14.

Group two. Believing Jews. Gentiles are grafted into them, adopted into the promises made by God. The believing Jews are the natural olive tree. Gentile believers are the wild olive tree branches the wild is grafted into the natural.

So there are fundamentally two groups, God's enemies, both Jew and Gentile, and God's friends, believing Christians, consisting of believing Jews, and Gentiles.

You wrote, "Revelation is full of biblical imagery taken from the OT and NT. Use that imagery alone, and don't go trying to interpret some biblical image with modern day events. That's the way John wanted people to read it, not wondering whether 'grasshoppers' might be USA helicopter gunships! (For example)"

Phil replies, "Modern day events," hmmm. Well, being the book of Revelation is still future, it would be hard not to use modern day events. Example, Israel becoming a nation again, 1948. as prophesied in many O.T. passages. Many O.T. prophets spoke of their return from every nation on earth, back to the promised land. Returned from where God had scattered them.

If anyone denies this, they may as well throw out Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Hosea, at a whole bunch of others. Also what you would be saying is, God is a liar, he won't/can't keep his promises; His unconditional covenants made with Abraham, David, Moses etc. are a sham.

Lets talk about the two witnesses. I understand these to be two literal men, standing outside Jerusalem, having great power, until their testimony is finished. Then they are killed. As their bodies lie in the street, Scriptures tell us,

Rev.11:9, "And the people and kindreds (tribes) and tongues (people of every language) and nations shall see their dead bodies."

Now how do you suppose that could have happened, or will happen without T.V. equipment, and satellite technology."

You wrote, "My third paradigm (from the various verses on the Kingdom of God in the NT) is that us Christians are the Kingdom of God now. The NT Kingdom of God is made up of believing Jews and Gentiles."

Phil replies, "I agree."

You wrote, "So that together, all Israel may be saved."

Phil replies, "The word "ALL" is used hyperbolically." Example. Lets say a team wins the NCAA tournament. They fly into town after the game, and a large crowd meets them at the airport. The morning paper reads, "All of Louisville came out to meet them." It doesn't mean every man or women was at the airport, but a representation of the whole city, and its various surrounding towns.

So "All Israel," does not mean every man women or child, but the whole house will be represented in the 12 tribes, no Gentiles included.

John 3:16, "God so loved the world, He gave his only begotten Son."

All the world, every man, women and child has a chance to be saved. But will all men be saved? No.

You wrote, That's us. "James writes to the '12 tribes', but he's obviously writing to the church."

Phil replies, "No, Israel (Jews, Hebrews, sons of Abraham, sons of David) call them what you want, they are Jews. Never, ever anywhere in the Bible, N.T. or O.T. do the 12 tribes represent anything else but the literal sons of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Scriptures contain 29 lists of the tribes of Israel in both the Old and New Testament. Never are more than 12 tribes ever mentioned. When a tribe was left out, and another inserted, it was usually the tribe of Levi. From this tribe came the priesthood.

God watches over Israel even in their greatest distress. Concerning the 12 tribes mentioned in Rev.7, the 144,000, there is absolutely no justification whatsoever for spiritualizing either the number 144,000, or the names of the tribes in these passages. The 12 tribes never represent a church. Never in Scriptures are they represented as anything other then that.

The 12 tribes of Israel (Israel becoming Jacob new name, Gen.32:28.) were first mentioned in prophecy, in Gen.49:16-28. The 12 sons of Jacob, were born of four mothers, Jacob being the common father. Leah and Rachel were Jacob's wives, with Bilhah and Zilpah being concubines.

Anyone that states differently is a liar, there is no such phrase in the Bible as "Spiritual Israel," meaning the church, Jew and Gentile.

And here is where the problem is. Talk about modern day interpretation being forced into the text, their it is. You are doing what you tell others not to do.

Try to make your questions shorter. I discuss others in another forum, keep up a web-site, and for the past 9 years, translating the N.T. Greek K.J.V. Check out my web-site, especially the dictionary, you will learn something about the language of the N.T.

Phil LaSpino

 

[eclipsenow]

Your comments about the apostles revealed that you don't seem to understand Biblical Theology, the unfolding single plan of God in the bible. In this instance, you don't seem to understand the journey from disciple of Jesus to Apostle *for* Jesus, from followers of Jesus before the cross and resurrection, to Spirit-enabled Apostles after his resurrection!

Also, please explain where you get the 21 years of Peter's confusion from? But that's by the by.

If you're REALLY arguing that the post-Resurrection, Spirit enabled Apostles had faulty understanding, then can we trust anything they wrote? How do we know when they're getting it right and when they're getting it wrong?

Haven't you just undermined the sufficiency of scripture, the infallibility of the bible as a guide for our salvation? Haven't you just laid down a fundamental attack on Christianity itself?

Back to your assumptions again!

So there are fundamentally two groups, God's enemies, both Jew and Gentile, and God's friends, believing Christians, consisting of believing Jews, and Gentiles.

Correct, but it's what you do with these groups that messes eschatology up.

Well, being the book of Revelation is still future, it would be hard not to use modern day events. Example, Israel becoming a nation again, 1948. as prophesied in many O.T. passages. Many O.T. prophets spoke of their return from every nation on earth, back to the promised land. Returned from where God had scattered them.

Do you want to justify your assumption that Revelation is a book about the future? John clearly wrote that the things were to begin SOON, that the TIME WAS NEAR! That was 2000 years ago. He wrote SOON and TIME NEAR to HIS generation. Do you want to explain to us what took so long?

All OT promises were fulfilled in Jesus and the Apostles in eschatological tension. Romans and Galations and Hebrews explains this. God's promises to Abraham were that God would make Abraham's seed into a great nation. They would be "God's people living God's way in God's land". Every one of those promises were fulfilled in Christ, or else there's no point calling ourselves Christians! WE are now God's people living God's way in ALL THE EARTH, God's land, as the gospel goes out to ALL cultures and languages and empires and lands. Hebrews 4 and Hebrews 11 explains that the 'rest' of God's land is now heaven. So we are in God's world / land now, but awaiting God's blessed rest / perfect land in heaven.

Once Dispensationalists and futurists start separating out *some* promises as belonging to Israel and *some* belonging to Christians, then the whole fabric of the gospel starts coming undone. If the *land* promises still apply to Abraham, well, who really are God's people then? If the Jews rebuilt the temple, wouldn't reinstating the sacrificial system be an absolute BLASPHEMY against Jesus once-for-all sacrifice? It all starts collapsing.

Phil replies, "No, Israel (Jews, Hebrews, sons of Abraham, sons of David) call them what you want, they are Jews. Never, ever anywhere in the Bible, N.T. or O.T. do the 12 tribes represent anything else but the literal sons of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Then you've fundamentally misunderstood the bible.

God watches over Israel even in their greatest distress. Concerning the 12 tribes mentioned in Rev.7, the 144,000, there is absolutely no justification whatsoever for spiritualizing either the number 144,000, or the names of the tribes in these passages. The 12 tribes never represent a church. Never in Scriptures are they represented as anything other then that.

That's as bad as quoting Rev 1 and saying the sword coming out of Jesus mouth was literal! Or try Rev 5 where Jesus had 7 eyes and 7 horns! "there is absolutely no justification whatsoever for spiritualizing either the number of eyes or the number of horns!" Yeah, right. ;-)

Anyone that states differently is a liar, there is no such phrase in the Bible as "Spiritual Israel," meaning the church, Jew and Gentile.

Yeah, nice, so I'm a liar now am I?

Anyway, maybe there is not exactly that phrase but the meaning is clearly implied. Just as the word 'trinity' is no where in the bible!

Just as Jesus fulfils the OT concepts of Prophet, Priest, and King, we inherit his spiritual blessings of the spiritual REALITY of these OT types and shadows. We are a spiritual kingdom, and this spiritual kingdom is superior to the old physical one.

KING:
"My Kingdom is not of this world". Jesus undeniably set up a spiritual kingdom, with himself as it's King. We are in his kingdom if we trust in him.

HOUSE:
This can be seen in Hebrews 3:5 where Moses is just the servant, but Jesus is the SON!
"“Moses was faithful as a servant in all God’s house,” bearing witness to what would be spoken by God in the future. 6 But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory. "
So we are God's House now, not Israel!

REST IN THE LAND:
Not only that, we inherit God's "spiritual land" or the rest of the New Heavens and New Earth. At the end of Hebrews 3 we see that Moses generation were not allowed to enter God's the land which was God's security and rest from Israel's enemies. But they were not allowed to enter that rest. (Land). Yet at the start of Hebrews 4 we find out that offer is still open, to us! But the nature of the rest has changed. It's now, of course, *spiritual* in nature. "My kingdom is not of this world". But where in Hebrews does it tell that generation of Christians to come running down to the land of Palestine for salvation? It doesn't. It spiritualises the Kingdom Land of God to the concept of heaven!

Hebrews 4:3 "Now we who have believed enter that rest,"
Christians have inherited the 'rest' or 'land' of God. Where is it? Heaven! Jesus says "I will give you rest" and Hebrews explains that rest is in heaven. Hebrews 11: "8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance... 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them."

Land = Rest = Heaven.

I don't think I've 'spiritualised' anything more than Hebrews has!

Not only that, but Ephesians 2 explains that we are *already* citizens seated there. "And God *raised* us up with Christ and *seated* us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus."

We are already there! But not yet. We are citizens of the spiritual land of heaven, but still strive to keep trusting and obeying on our journey there. This is 'eschatological tension', the 'now and not yet' nature of the time in which we live.

PRIESTHOOD:
The OT priesthood is spiritualised.
Hebrews 4:14 "Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven,[f] Jesus the Son of God,"

Hebrews 7:
"22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant. 23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood."

The TEMPLE and SANCTUARY are spiritualised:
Hebrews 6:19
"We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, 20 where our forerunner, Jesus, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek."

Jesus didn't actually go into the sanctuary, so what is the author talking about? Oh yeah, he's making a number of spiritual points!

Hebrews 8:
"We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the TRUE tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being..."

Indeed, the *heavenly* temple was the only *real* one all along. The earthly temple was only ever a "COPY and SHADOW of what is in heaven...." (Hebrew 8).

ABRAHAMIC COVENANT ITSELF SPIRITUALLY FULFILLED AND CLOSED OFF!
Hebrews 8 closes off the promises to Abraham as fulfilled in Christ.
"13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon DISAPPEAR."

Hebrews 10 shows that "The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves."

Jesus is our spiritual king, our spiritual High Priest, our spiritual prophet and final word from God (Hebrews 1), and has fulfilled the OT law and sacrificial system. The OT concept of land is inextricably intertwined with the temple and the law and security and safety and Mt Zion and rest. We have all that now.

" 22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. "

Unless you wish to destroy the gospel itself, please do what the author of Hebrews does and acknowledge that Jesus has translated the promise of the 'land' up into a much larger dimension of a New Heavens and New Earth, and that this abundantly over-fulfills all the Abrahamic promises. Just as Jesus could raise up Sons of Abraham from the stones themselves, and bring us in as 'spiritual' inheritors to this one Kingdom of God, so too he can translate the entire Kingdom of God from the OT into a spiritual kingdom of God in the new.

I close with Hebrews 12:

" 22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the HEAVENLY Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the CHURCH of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a NEW covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a BETTER word than the blood of Abel. "

Amen!

 

[LaSpino3]

Eclipsenow, I am not going to discuss this matter with you for several reasons; Your rude, and your disrespectful. You and Zeke must have gone to the same school, do they call it the "School of know it alls."

Phil

 

[zeke37]

Your rude, and your disrespectful

you mean, we don't agree with you...