‘Disqualified’ Pastor Ted Haggard Starting New Church

[DRD4Him]

well it is a card Jesus and Paul played often

The Pharisees of Jesus's era, were political appointees of Herod. Herod certainly fits the mold of the sexually liberal.

Let us not forget history OK. Or we're doomed to repeat it.

Oops, Obama . . . too late . . .

 

[dies-l]

The Pharisees of Jesus's era, were political appointees of Herod. Herod certainly fits the mold of the sexually liberal.

Let us not forget history OK. Or we're doomed to repeat it.

Oops, Obama . . . too late . . .

But, more importantly, they were religious legalists. Their essential belief was that "sinners" were responsible for the Roman occupation of Israel, which was, in their mindset, God's punishment on Israel for allowing such wanton sin. Hardly sounds like "liberalism" to me.

 

[silence_dogood]

well it is a card Jesus and Paul played often

No, actually, they didn't. But it certainly is one that those who hate God's word play often.

 

[DRD4Him]

But, more importantly, they were religious legalists.

Who did they fool other than political Israelites? John (the Baptist) preached against the Pahraisee's boss and Jesus preached directly at and in a condemning way about the hypocrisy of the pharisees of doing one thing and saying another.

Herod is the fruit of the Pharisees.

Their essential belief was that "sinners" were responsible for the Roman occupation of Israel, which was, in their mindset, God's punishment on Israel for allowing such wanton sin. Hardly sounds like "liberalism" to me.

Allowing wanton sins sounds very much like one side of the issue when it comes to behaving as a Christian should, but acting like the world and its ways. Which indeed are very liberal in morality and sexuality.

Liberalism is the same behavior no matter where it is found.

 

[dies-l]

Who did they fool other than political Israelites? John (the Baptist) preached against the Pahraisee's boss and Jesus preached directly at and in a condemning way about the hypocrisy of the pharisees of doing one thing and saying another.

Herod is the fruit of the Pharisees.



Allowing wanton sins sounds very much like one side of the issue when it comes to behaving as a Christian should, but acting like the world and its ways. Which indeed are very liberal in morality and sexuality.

Liberalism is the same behavior no matter where it is found.

The Pharisees were the loudest voice against "wanton sin". They were not in favor of allowing. They were merciless against those who they perceived as "sinners". This is why Jesus criticized them so harshly. Jesus' concern was not whatever political affiliations they may have had with Herod. His concern was that their overwhelming sense of legalism had blinded them to the weighter aspects of the law, such as mercy and compassion. To paint the Pharisees as the loose and wild liberals of Jesus' day is downright ignorant of history and Scripture.

By the reasoning you are using, Ted Haggard was an evangelical pastor who was held in high repute by the evangelical community. He was also apparently a homosexual who solicited male prostitutes and a drug abuser. Should we then conclude that the evangelical movement is defined by sexually promiscuity, prostitution, and drug abuse? Of course not! Nor should Herod's actions, even if your view of history is accurate, be seen as defining the Pharisaical movement of Jesus' day. We should especially be careful not to assume that Jesus' criticism of the movement was a result of whatever relationship they might have had with Herod when Jesus' words do not even reasonably allow for such an interpretation.

 

[marklbernard]

No, actually, they didn't. But it certainly is one that those who hate God's word play often.

Then you and I must be reading different bibles

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Ah, yes, I knew it would only be a matter of time until you played the Pharisee card.

We're not talking about who Jesus is. We're talking about the Biblical requirements for holding the pastorate.

The point I am making is that one can have a complete knowledge of the letter of the Word and not much knowledge of the Spirit of the Word. There are times when Jesus did things outside of the letter of the Scriptures, but still within the spirit of them.

I could apply the letter of the Word and say that not one of us are qualified to be pastors of churches because we have all sinned. All sin is grievous to God. He does not distinguish one sin from another. All sin is rebellion against Him, and the Word says that rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft (1 Samuel 15:23). We have all committed sin in some shape or form, so none of us are qualified to be pastors, so all those who are pastors should resign immediately if the letter of the Scriptures is to be applied to them.

 

[mmmcounts]

The man made a mistake four years ago. What did he ever do to deserve such a profound lack of compassion and forgiveness? If his wife and children have forgiven him and he's made his peace with the Lord what business is it of anyone else's?

My freshman year of college, the RA on my floor happened to be a guy from Colorado Springs who grew up in Haggard's former megachurch.

He also happened to be majoring in Bible/Theology with the intention (which, four years later, he is fulfilling) of becoming a pastor.

He knew he wanted to be a pastor since he was in high school. From that time until a little over halfway through college, Haggard was the main man he looked to as a mentor and as an example. After college, he was planning on (and looking forward to) getting experience as an associate pastor alongside him.

I'm sure you can imagine what it felt like for him to find out about what happened. And when the college chaplain addressed the issue during chapel in front of the entire student body, he felt like he was in a waking nightmare. There was absolutely no malice or lack of compassion in the way it was addressed, but he still wanted to sink into his seat and disappear. Outside of his immediate family, that's the person he trusted and looked up to more than anyone. Then all of a sudden, his shocking behavior is a problem that needs to be addressed in front of his school halfway across the country. How do you come back from that? I have no idea how he was able to leave chapel that morning and function normally for the rest of the day.

For my friend, this was an enormous breach of trust and certainly the biggest disappointment of his life. That's what happens when you occupy such a position, though- there's opportunity to do a tremendous amount of good (ie., help train young men like my former RA for the ministry). But there's a considerable amount of risk, as well.

When that position of trust and authority is abused, betrayed, and vacated- especially in such a shocking, embarrassing, and visible manner- the consequences are far-reaching and, trust me, unbelievably difficult for those who are affected by it.

I don't think you'll find too many people who would oppose forgiveness and/or compassion. But if you knew my friend and had seen what he went through, you'd probably be more inclined to look after his best interest and that of other young people who very well might have to go through the same thing in the next 10 years or so.

My friend was lucky, in a way. He seriously considered changing majors and giving up his dream of entering the ministry. He had some really great people right there with him, though, and they came alongside to help him through it.

Most people aren't so lucky. I certainly want to show compassion to Ted Haggard, and I know how important it is to forgive him, even if it is one of the hardest things you've ever had to do. I've seen how hard it can be.

Nevertheless, I don't want to see it happen again. And when Haggard assumes the position and responsibility that he once held, I don't think good things are going to come of it in the end.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It is certainly an object lesson to see how sin affects others when we disobey the Lord. As there are people at the other end of our obedience when we seek to do the will of God, there are others also at the other end of our disobedience who may miss out on blessings and experience embarassment and disappointment. A very sobering story.

 

[marklbernard]

My freshman year of college, the RA on my floor happened to be a guy from Colorado Springs who grew up in Haggard's former megachurch.

He also happened to be majoring in Bible/Theology with the intention (which, four years later, he is fulfilling) of becoming a pastor.

He knew he wanted to be a pastor since he was in high school. From that time until a little over halfway through college, Haggard was the main man he looked to as a mentor and as an example. After college, he was planning on (and looking forward to) getting experience as an associate pastor alongside him.

I'm sure you can imagine what it felt like for him to find out about what happened. And when the college chaplain addressed the issue during chapel in front of the entire student body, he felt like he was in a waking nightmare. There was absolutely no malice or lack of compassion in the way it was addressed, but he still wanted to sink into his seat and disappear. Outside of his immediate family, that's the person he trusted and looked up to more than anyone. Then all of a sudden, his shocking behavior is a problem that needs to be addressed in front of his school halfway across the country. How do you come back from that? I have no idea how he was able to leave chapel that morning and function normally for the rest of the day.

For my friend, this was an enormous breach of trust and certainly the biggest disappointment of his life. That's what happens when you occupy such a position, though- there's opportunity to do a tremendous amount of good (ie., help train young men like my former RA for the ministry). But there's a considerable amount of risk, as well.

When that position of trust and authority is abused, betrayed, and vacated- especially in such a shocking, embarrassing, and visible manner- the consequences are far-reaching and, trust me, unbelievably difficult for those who are affected by it.

I don't think you'll find too many people who would oppose forgiveness and/or compassion. But if you knew my friend and had seen what he went through, you'd probably be more inclined to look after his best interest and that of other young people who very well might have to go through the same thing in the next 10 years or so.

My friend was lucky, in a way. He seriously considered changing majors and giving up his dream of entering the ministry. He had some really great people right there with him, though, and they came alongside to help him through it.

Most people aren't so lucky. I certainly want to show compassion to Ted Haggard, and I know how important it is to forgive him, even if it is one of the hardest things you've ever had to do. I've seen how hard it can be.

Nevertheless, I don't want to see it happen again. And when Haggard assumes the position and responsibility that he once held, I don't think good things are going to come of it in the end.

Good points, the reality is this, there are manypeople in ministry, who simply have not dealt with core fundamental issues in their lives, who have great giftings and strong spirits and who are able to flow in what God has for them, but without addressing these fundamental sin issues in their lives.

Because they have not "purged" themselves of these sinful patterns in their lives they can repress them for so long. Eventually pressure and satanic opposition will arise and take advantage of the weakness in their flesh. I think the example for entering ministry should be based on Pauls words to Timothy, that to be a Holy Vessel unto honour it is important that we purge ourselves from our sins (not that we will be totatlly without sin) but those major areas in our lives that we know satan can use against us.

For example, I have a problem with Anger, it is an issue that I have wrestled with for a long tim, and I know that before I could enter into any type of ministry then that is something that I have to deal with in my life.

But thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ we have victory in Him, He can purge us, and we can be useful for the masters work.

 

[silence_dogood]

Oscarr;54983794]The point I am making is that one can have a complete knowledge of the letter of the Word and not much knowledge of the Spirit of the Word.

[/COLOR]

As you have demonstrated many, many times in your posts.

I could apply the letter of the Word and say that not one of us are qualified to be pastors of churches because we have all sinned. All sin is grievous to God. He does not distinguish one sin from another. All sin is rebellion against Him, and the Word says that rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft (1 Samuel 15:23). We have all committed sin in some shape or form, so none of us are qualified to be pastors, so all those who are pastors should resign immediately if the letter of the Scriptures is to be applied to them.

And if only you would take the passages I've shown you seriously, you would know that while all sin is grievous to God, not all men who sin are disqualified from holding the pastorate.

 

[silence_dogood]

Then you and I must be reading different bibles

That much is obvious.

 

[marklbernard]

That much is obvious.

Now you need to get yourself a proper bible and learn the art of hermenuetics

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

[/COLOR]

As you have demonstrated many, many times in your posts.



And if only you would take the passages I've shown you seriously, you would know that while all sin is grievous to God, not all men who sin are disqualified from holding the pastorate.

Just be aware of the forum rules about getting too personal in your comments. We need to keep to the issues. Play the ball, not the player.

In my view, continuance in sin would continue the disqualification. So, is Mr Haggard still engaging in homosexual activities? Have we any evidence of that?

 

[silence_dogood]

Now you need to get yourself a proper bible and learn the art of hermenuetics

Thank you for that well thought out and insightful post.

 

[silence_dogood]

Just be aware of the forum rules about getting too personal in your comments.

Darned if I wasn't thinking the same thing every time you made your repeated personal attacks toward me.

If you think I've broken the rules then, by all means, report me.

We need to keep to the issues. Play the ball, not the player.

...says the same guy who had to be reminded literally dozens of times that his posts had nothing to do with the topic.

In my view, continuance in sin would continue the disqualification. So, is Mr Haggard still engaging in homosexual activities? Have we any evidence of that?

I've already explained to you why he continues to be in a state of ineligibility for the pastorate.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

[/COLOR]

Darned if I wasn't thinking the same thing every time you made your repeated personal attacks toward me.

I have looked back through my posts, and I cannot see any posts where I have personally attacked you for your views.

 

[ohcean]

While I think that it's a bad idea, I can only hope and pray that Haggard is truly reformed and that he can use this, um, trial of his life to minister to people who would otherwise not be ministered to. I don't know if he can/should populate a mainstream church, but again, I pray that if his intentions are for God's great plan, then I don't wish him any ill will.

 

[Phinehas2]

Oscarr wrote..

Just be aware of the forum rules about getting too personal in your comments. We need to keep to the issues. Play the ball, not the player.

In my view, continuance in sin would continue the disqualification. So, is Mr Haggard still engaging in homosexual activities? Have we any evidence of that?

Spot on on both accounts.

Oscarr may I use the phrase play the ball not the player?

Continued sinful activity is the benchmark.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oscarr wrote..

Spot on on both accounts.

Oscarr may I use the phrase play the ball not the player?

Continued sinful activity is the benchmark.

Feel free!