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  #481  
Old 26th October 2006, 01:43 AM
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Originally Posted by dad View Post
Thank you! Then it accomodates the life we see on earth. Nothing you have locks down the evidence as something that is against creation. All you do is also try to accommodate a physical only, material only, present observation of the evidence, man as animals, evo world view.
Amazing you got away with it so long.
An explanation that can explain any hypothetical observation fails to explain anything. Your assertion that creationism is true is utterly untestable, because there is absolutely no way to falsify it. Any and all observations would be consistent with it. A test that will always confirm the thing being tested, regardless of the outcome, isn't actually testing anything.
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  #482  
Old 26th October 2006, 02:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Ondoher View Post
An explanation that can explain any hypothetical observation fails to explain anything.
Creationism is a big set of ideas that are almost as different as those that hold them, so you cannot say creationism does this or that. You could say something like, "flood geologists say this..." or etc.
Creationism in essence says that God created life on earth, as the bible says. In the view of a different past creation, the evidence agrees. One could say that according to evolution, we might have evolved to pink unicorns, rather than man, or whatever, so it is evolution that fails to explain anything!

Your assertion that creationism is true is utterly untestable, because there is absolutely no way to falsify it.
No, your claim it is NOT true is utterly untestable, because there is absolutely no way to falsify it. Neither can the past be tested, where you claim some lifeform 'appeared'. All this means is that poor little science can't do it, it isn't up to the task, or even close.
Which brings us round to you, claiming science, coughing up the goods for your claim! How did that elephant come from a worm? Your answer is no more valid than a fairy tale! At least as far as science can go!


Any and all observations would be consistent with it. A test that will always confirm the thing being tested, regardless of the outcome, isn't actually testing anything.
Everything is consistant with my ideas at least as much as yours, and a whole lot more, cause mine also embrace a known spiritual, and the bible to boot! Can' t top that.
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  #483  
Old 26th October 2006, 03:48 AM
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Originally Posted by dad View Post
No, because you can't lay any scientific claim on the state of the past, you are only right in your mind!
Why not? All one needs to do to make a scientific claim is make a specific prediction that can be falsified. This applies to the past just as well as the present.

Originally Posted by dad View Post
You just get in line, with the beliefs. When you pass through school doors, you line up with other beliefs as the one.
No I don't. I believe very differently on the details of a number of theories with other people I converse with. We debate all the time. The difference between what we do and what you are doing right now is that we don't assume that we are correct ahead of time as you do. We test and see who is correct.

Originally Posted by dad View Post
Now we simply look at who has the most evidenced , time tested, and solid belief. That is where we are with that here.
That would be the scientific conclusions. Just because a belief is old doesn't make it true. That would be the logical fallacy of argument from tradition.
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  #484  
Old 26th October 2006, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by dad View Post
But they consider it not broke down connecting one form of life to another form, because it looks somewhat the same in some ways, or. 'traits', no?
No. They consider it doesn't break down because you categorize animals animals systematically, it doesn't.

The general idea is good, is what I am saying, as a classification option, but it does not evidence evolution everywhere, only some places. The connections between kinds are not real, and a leap of faith.
No, they are not. Since genetics shows the tree of life to hold independently from morphology, this does point to evolution.

ERVs themselves, I think represent something other than a common ancestor, as discussed already here. The so called tree of life, off topic here, but you could not defend the connections, because it was started from created kinds.
Bull. As long as you have no better explanation for the tree of life (including ERV's), evolution is the best explanation. You have yet to offer a better expanation other then your handwaving.
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  #485  
Old 26th October 2006, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by dad View Post
Creationism is a big set of ideas that are almost as different as those that hold them, so you cannot say creationism does this or that. You could say something like, "flood geologists say this..." or etc.
Creationism in essence says that God created life on earth, as the bible says. In the view of a different past creation, the evidence agrees. One could say that according to evolution, we might have evolved to pink unicorns, rather than man, or whatever, so it is evolution that fails to explain anything!
Let me try this again. There is no possible observation that would falsify creationism. This is because creationism does not tell us anything nontrivial about how the world should behave if creationism were true. It doesn't tell us what kind of evidence must exist if creationism were true. It can explain anything that could ever be thrown at it.

On the other hand, this is not true of evolution. It does tell us how things must be if evolution is true. It can be falsified by hypothetical observations. Evolution does predict necessary consequences of the theory.


Originally Posted by dad View Post
No, your claim it is NOT true is utterly untestable, because there is absolutely no way to falsify it. Neither can the past be tested, where you claim some lifeform 'appeared'. All this means is that poor little science can't do it, it isn't up to the task, or even close.
Which brings us round to you, claiming science, coughing up the goods for your claim! How did that elephant come from a worm? Your answer is no more valid than a fairy tale! At least as far as science can go!
It's nice to see you try to use the language of science. It is a shame you don't know how.

Creationism is unfalsifiable because it does not lead to testable deductions. We can deduce nothing about the limitations of a supernatural creator, as such we cannot limit what such a thing might produce. If there are no hypothetical limits to an explanation then it cannot be tested.

Explanations of the past can be tested. All you need to do is deduce some necessary consequence of your explanation, and set about confirming or denying those consequences. This is a form of logic known as Modus Tollens, and is a very important part of the Hypothetico-deductive method of science.

Originally Posted by dad View Post
Everything is consistant with my ideas at least as much as yours, and a whole lot more, cause mine also embrace a known spiritual, and the bible to boot! Can' t top that.
Your explanation can explain anything. And that is its weakness. In being able to accommodate anything, it fails to actually explain why anything is specifically the way it is.
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  #486  
Old 26th October 2006, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Chalnoth View Post
Why not? All one needs to do to make a scientific claim is make a specific prediction that can be falsified. This applies to the past just as well as the present.
The only way it could apply to the dep past is if your assumption and prediction that it was the same state was right. That you can't have. As it is, you are left with anything based on that as assumption and belief only, like it or not.


No I don't. I believe very differently on the details of a number of theories with other people I converse with. We debate all the time. The difference between what we do and what you are doing right now is that we don't assume that we are correct ahead of time as you do. We test and see who is correct.
Within the box only, so the results apply just to the box of the present, and as long as this state existed, which you have no idea whatsoever about. That is the perimeters. Thus far, and no futher, you shall not pass.


That would be the scientific conclusions. Just because a belief is old doesn't make it true. That would be the logical fallacy of argument from tradition.
Science is not time tested, or even able to test time. Just because your belief works in the present doesn't make it true throughout the sands of all time. That would be illogical fallacy.
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  #487  
Old 26th October 2006, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Tomk80 View Post
No. They consider it doesn't break down because you categorize animals animals systematically, it doesn't.
But grouping them in some order does not mean there were no kinds to start with. In any way, on the conntrary, it makes a whole lot of sense, just look at the elephant tree.

No, they are not. Since genetics shows the tree of life to hold independently from morphology, this does point to evolution.
And well it shouldm because there was a lot of evolving involved, the point is, it cannot exclude the created kinds that started the ball rolling.


Bull. As long as you have no better explanation for the tree of life (including ERV's),
I do. Created kinds, with evolution as well. Sorry if your worm feels left out, but it was created as well.
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  #488  
Old 26th October 2006, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Ondoher View Post
Let me try this again. There is no possible observation that would falsify creationism.
If it were true, this is a surprise??


This is because creationism does not tell us anything nontrivial about how the world should behave if creationism were true.
There is no world that could exist without being created here. That is not trivial.

It doesn't tell us what kind of evidence must exist if creationism were true. It can explain anything that could ever be thrown at it.
Evos, eat your heart out!

On the other hand, this is not true of evolution.
I really must be missing something here, that you could actually try to brag about this?!

It does tell us how things must be if evolution is true. It can be falsified by hypothetical observations. Evolution does predict necessary consequences of the theory.
But evolution is true, to a large degree, so this seems where you are getting confused.



It's nice to see you try to use the language of science. It is a shame you don't know how.
Too bad you can't falsify creation, or test the past state. Hope you don't think just speaking a certain way will help evolution from granny bacteria become true.

Creationism is unfalsifiable because it does not lead to testable deductions. We can deduce nothing about the limitations of a supernatural creator, as such we cannot limit what such a thing might produce.
No, you certainly can't begin to do that! You can't limit what God created, the universe as it was and will be, let alone test it. I haven't seen granny in for a check up, either, lately, at the doctor's office.

If there are no hypothetical limits to an explanation then it cannot be tested.
Not by you. But my ideas do have limits, like the limits of this temporary universe, the limits of actual evolution, etc.

Explanations of the past can be tested. All you need to do is deduce some necessary consequence of your explanation, and set about confirming or denying those consequences. This is a form of logic known as Modus Tollens, and is a very important part of the Hypothetico-deductive method of science.
If anything I say evet fails at this modus tollens, do let us know. That isn't my modus operendi, to fail, it takes to great a toll.


Your explanation can explain anything. And that is its weakness.
Uhhh, yeah, like superman can lift anything, so that is why he is a weakling, got it. Maybe you ought to go way back to the basics and check your elementary deductive logic?

In being able to accommodate anything, it fails to actually explain why anything is specifically the way it is.
My ideas don't fail, they succeed. As for the greater ability to explain, sorry, that is just how good the ideas are. Why languish, and moan, and remain in darkness not really being able to explain things, when the Great Explainer gave us all the cheat cards we ever need??!!!
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  #489  
Old 26th October 2006, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by dad View Post
The only way it could apply to the dep past is if your assumption and prediction that it was the same state was right. That you can't have. As it is, you are left with anything based on that as assumption and belief only, like it or not.
You don't need your assumptions to be right to ask a scientific question. In fact, you often expect that your assumptions are wrong on some level (we know, for instance, that general relativity or quantum mechanics must be wrong on some level, but we don't know where yet). You just make the assumption, find the logical conclusions of that assumption, and then see if it matches the real world. You don't want to place any biases (if possible) on the assumptions that people can make: the assumptions only must have observable effects to be useful for science.

Now, once you do that, it is not infrequent to find that there is more than one explanation for the physical world. So once we have more than one theory that is consistent with the physical world, we take the theory that is the simplest. Typically this is considered as being measured by the number of input parameters. For example, take evolution. Evolution is about as simple a theory as we can possibly get because it has zero input parameters: every single parameter can, in principle, be directly measured.

Special creation of all species, on the other hand, has an obscene number of parameters: in order to describe the theory, you have to fully describe each and every animal independent of every other animal. Thus evolution is vastly simpler than creation.

In principle this might be avoided such that you could define the diety responsible for creation in such a way that it would predict exactly all of the animals that we see on the Earth today, but I don't think this is remotely possible.
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  #490  
Old 27th October 2006, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Chalnoth View Post
You don't need your assumptions to be right to ask a scientific question. In fact, you often expect that your assumptions are wrong on some level (we know, for instance, that general relativity or quantum mechanics must be wrong on some level, but we don't know where yet). You just make the assumption, find the logical conclusions of that assumption, and then see if it matches the real world.
Only works where the real was the same as the world we now live in! Also, assumptions need to be somewhat realistic, and based on facts. Assuming a same past universe is not a fact. It is simply one way that evidence has been viewed.

You don't want to place any biases (if possible) on the assumptions that people can make: the assumptions only must have observable effects to be useful for science.
Mine do. There was creation, and some adapting, and we observe the result. Creation is possible in the different past, as is fast evolution. Granny is not.

Now, once you do that, it is not infrequent to find that there is more than one explanation for the physical world. So once we have more than one theory that is consistent with the physical world, we take the theory that is the simplest. Typically this is considered as being measured by the number of input parameters. For example, take evolution. Evolution is about as simple a theory as we can possibly get because it has zero input parameters: every single parameter can, in principle, be directly measured.

Special creation of all species, on the other hand, has an obscene number of parameters: in order to describe the theory, you have to fully describe each and every animal independent of every other animal. Thus evolution is vastly simpler than creation.
No. I don't say there is some special creation of all creatures, some things have hundreds of species. It is the creation of the original kinds that happened. That is a lot simpler than stuffing the universe in a thimble, adding billions of imaginary years, having earth finally appear, then some lifeform that happens to do it all for no apparent reason! That puts an incredible strain on mathematical probabilities, and reason.

In principle this might be avoided such that you could define the diety responsible for creation in such a way that it would predict exactly all of the animals that we see on the Earth today, but I don't think this is remotely possible.
Your little requirements, and rules only apply in the present, material world. You can't go trying to dictate the future and past states of the universe, and God, and defining Him, and why He chose to create the creatures He did. Your rules only apply in the little present kingdom or box.
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