Creation & EvolutionForum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too.
We speak different languages. I speak science, you speak something else. I don't think I can keep trying to educate a person who doesn't want to be educated. I may respond to the above post later, or I might not. I'm not sure I have the energy to keep going in circles like this. Or to explain how science works to a person who doesn't want to know.
Your tree needs a tweek somethin fierce. Prove it if you say it does.
Prove the past was different first.
__________________ “It took me years, but letting go of religion has been the most profound wake up of my life. I feel I now look at the world not as a child, but as an adult. I see what's bad and it's really bad. But I also see what is beautiful, what is wonderful. And I feel so deeply appreciative that I am alive. How dare the religious use the term 'born again.' That truly describes freethinkers who've thrown off the shackles of religion so much better!” - Julia Sweeney
...to explain how science works to a person who doesn't want to know.
I think we all know how it works. Trying to connect that to the past, and where we come from is the issue. You and others already said how the tree was made, looking at traits, and presumtions of evolution. All well and good, but it does not make your product better that the presumptions, and logic and beliefs and world view that went into it. And that is what we are dicing up here.
__________________ Pr 21:30 -There is no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against the LORD.
The fact that the tree claimed whales came from something on the left of the picture here means that that has to be supported. Is that so hard to do? No one can prove a same or different past, all we can do is see what fits best.
The tree below I said I thought seemed fine. Trying to connect this to a shrew or worm, or whatever, is another story. Science is fine up to a point.
edit: An interesting sidenote is that the primeeelephas were right after the KT boundry, I think. If they were the one on rhe ark, what would that tell us?
__________________ Pr 21:30 -There is no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against the LORD.
Last edited by dad; 25th October 2006 at 12:03 AM.
No one can prove a same or different past, all we can do is see what fits best.
Precisely. Now, name one single thing that doesn't make sense with a same past.
Because whale evolution? That's not it. Whales make zero sense if they didn't come from land animals. Why else would whales need to breathe air or why would they get the bends?
__________________ “It took me years, but letting go of religion has been the most profound wake up of my life. I feel I now look at the world not as a child, but as an adult. I see what's bad and it's really bad. But I also see what is beautiful, what is wonderful. And I feel so deeply appreciative that I am alive. How dare the religious use the term 'born again.' That truly describes freethinkers who've thrown off the shackles of religion so much better!” - Julia Sweeney
I think we all know how it works. Trying to connect that to the past, and where we come from is the issue. You and others already said how the tree was made, looking at traits, and presumtions of evolution. All well and good, but it does not make your product better that the presumptions, and logic and beliefs and world view that went into it. And that is what we are dicing up here.
Taxonomy as a science came well before evolution. Linnaeus had the basics down pat in the 1730's. There can be no presumption of evolution in taxonomy, evolution as a science did not yet exist when the science of modern taxonomy was invented. Evolution is just the best explanation for the nested hierarchy of species discovered by taxonomy.
Precisely. Now, name one single thing that doesn't make sense with a same past.
The bible!
Because whale evolution? That's not it. Whales make zero sense if they didn't come from land animals.
Why else would whales need to breathe air or why would they get the bends?
Because the nitrogen relationship is not how it was when things were created. In fact, nitrogen and carbon are close on the periodic table, and with a little atomic change, some things that involve nitrogen now, may have involved carbon in the past. This has been mistaken to be carbon from long decay. But that's another story.
__________________ Pr 21:30 -There is no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against the LORD.
Because the nitrogen relationship is not how it was when things were created. In fact, nitrogen and carbon are close on the periodic table, and with a little atomic change, some things that involve nitrogen now, may have involved carbon in the past. This has been mistaken to be carbon from long decay. But that's another story.
That makes zero sense.
__________________ “It took me years, but letting go of religion has been the most profound wake up of my life. I feel I now look at the world not as a child, but as an adult. I see what's bad and it's really bad. But I also see what is beautiful, what is wonderful. And I feel so deeply appreciative that I am alive. How dare the religious use the term 'born again.' That truly describes freethinkers who've thrown off the shackles of religion so much better!” - Julia Sweeney
No, it is your explanation. Some evolution, yes, but you can't go ballistic, or cladistic with that.
As a matter of fact, we can. Since you have yet to show where the tree of life would break down and since evolution from common ancestry best explains the tree of life, this remains the best possible conclusion.
__________________
Tom
'What luck for rulers, that men do not think.'
-Ascribed to Adolf Hitler-
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glas by Lewis Caroll-
Statistics are like a bikini. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.
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