Endogenous retroviruses

Loudmouth · #**131** 1st September 2004, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by JohnR7

God created everything, and He created it to be good. But then man and the devil made a mess out of things. If you built a brand new beautiful house and then your teenage son had a wild party and trashed the house, are you going to blame the builder, because the house is trashed?

If your teenage son had a wild party and an outbreak of ebola broke out in Africa, would you blame your son?

Some people are more cursed by sin than others. God offers us a choice, blessing or curse, health or sickness, poverty or prosperity. Each and every individual at some point in their life, gets to make that choice.

Wrong John. They are BORN with these ERV's, it is not a choice. Therefore, you have to explain why some people are born with more sin than others.

Man as we now know him has been around for about 6000 years. Before that there could have been what has been refered to as human like or humanoids. But not humans as we now know them.

Do you have evidence that backs this up? We have written documents that predate 4,000 BC.

God does not deceive people, but at times He will allow them to be deceived.

Allowing someone to be decieved by your creation and deceiving them with the creation are the same thing. This makes God a deceiver.

People do a pretty good job of deceiving themselves and others.

I know, I have read quite a few creationist sites.

Only if you can show they were added and not there all along. Otherwise, species may have a lot in common without having evolved from a common ancestor. There are other explainations for why they would have so much common DNA.

It is simple. All a creationist has to do is test newborns for ERV's. If they can show a certain ERV appearing in the same nucleotide position for 20% of the population in one generation then they have won. Of course, creationists are famous for not doing actual research, so I won't hold my breath. If every cell in our body caries an ERV at a precise nucleotide position the only explanation is that you were born with that ERV and did not acquire it over your lifetime. There is absolutely no evidence that retroviruses can leave the same sequence in the exact same spot in every somatic cell in an organisms body. Until that evidence is found your position has been refuted.

Mistermystery · #**132** 1st September 2004, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by JohnR7

Ok, lets try something different. I will give you the perspective from theistic evolution, sense your not going to accept creationism anyways.

I will accept creationism if there's enough evidence for it. So far it's got nothing.

Genesis 2:7-8
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
[8] The Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed.

Okay, so God created man from the ground. Got it.

Now according to theistic evolution, there is no referance to time here.

Okay, agreed.

We only know that God formed man out of the ground, out of the elements of the earth.

kay,

It could have taken God 64 million years, but when he was done, he took the man and put him in the garden.

... A bit rigoreus in a literal context, but sure, if you want that, it's okay.

This is where we find Adam, 6000 years ago,

Wait. What? Let's back track for a second:
>>>there is no referance to time here. <<<
Two sentences later:
<<< Where we find Adam, 6000 years ago >>>

Was that what I asked for? I clearly asked for *EVIDENCE* that God "created a new Earth 6000 years ago", or what ever you want your deity to do.

This work of redemption has taken 6000 years and we have another 1000 years to go.

More crazy numbers from John! Where do you get them all from John? Does someone whisper it in your ear, or do you genuily make them up for yourself?

So, 1000 years from now, everything will be restored. The earth will be as God intended it to be. There will be no pain, misery, suffering or sorrow. The animals will no longer devour one another. All of God's creation will abide together on this earth in peace and in harmony.

Sounds awfully boring. What makes you so sure that God won't make a mistake again?

brightlights · #**133** 1st September 2004, 03:54 PM

i read the posts up until about page 4, so forgive me if i am mistaken.

from what i see here, i understand that this virus effects both ape and human alike and this goes to prove that they are related or descendants. but it is already obvious that the ape is related to the human, it is a very similar creation. they are so similar that they share the same genetic diseases. but how does this go to prove that the human evolved from the ape?

Mistermystery · #**134** 1st September 2004, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by brightlights

i read the posts up until about page 4, so forgive me if i am mistaken.

from what i see here, i understand that this virus effects both ape and human alike and this goes to prove that they are related or descendants. but it is already obvious that the ape is related to the human, it is a very similar creation. they are so similar that they share the same genetic diseases. but how does this go to prove that the human evolved from the ape?

Hi there! An exclent question I might add. I think you oughto look at winace's post concerning this (3th post in this thread). While it get's kinda technical here and there it basicaly goes something like this:

Virusses particle invades a cell, injects its proprietary genome, hijacks the cellular machinery and turns it into a virus-making factory.This is the simple fact how we see virusses work.

Occasionally, however, something goes wrong in the integration process. When this occurs, the cell can survive, but selected portions of the viral DNA remain in its genome. These vary from infection to infection, not just from virus to virus.

The cell now becomes scarred and has this unique fingerprint of his attacker. Since the markers are now in the genome, they become hereditary--hence, any descendant of the afflicted cell will contain the same exact viral fingerprint(s) at the same exact spot in its DNA.

Fact remains that this happens very very very little, and the chances that the cell does survives is again very very small. However, this does occur, and when it does, the resulting offspring has the unique viral fingerprint embedded in every cell in its body, what is known as an "endogenous retroviral insertion",

So the virusses leave traces of itself in the genome, which can be identified. These are not like normal dna sequences (as far as I understand it), but unique in their make-up. I'd suggest you read his posts again, because I can't do a good job of it as he can.

brightlights · #**135** 1st September 2004, 05:05 PM

so the human genome has traces of this virus. why could these not have come from early human as opposed to ape? yes, ape shares the virus too, but the two species are very similar. i'm sorry, i fail to see the evolution here, it seems it can be justified.

Mistermystery · #**136** 1st September 2004, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by brightlights

so the human genome has traces of this virus. why could these not have come from early human as opposed to ape? yes, ape shares the virus too, but the two species are very similar. i'm sorry, i fail to see the evolution here, it seems it can be justified.

If both humans and apes share the same piece of data that says it's a viral infection, how do you suppose it got there?

Loudmouth · #**137** 1st September 2004, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by brightlights

so the human genome has traces of this virus. why could these not have come from early human as opposed to ape? yes, ape shares the virus too, but the two species are very similar. i'm sorry, i fail to see the evolution here, it seems it can be justified.

I'll try and explain this using analogies. Learning science through analogies is often easier than using the scientific terminology.

Let's pretend that the letters of the human genome are represented by a complete set of encyclopedias. Now, close your eyes and pick a volume at random. Keeping your eyes closed, flip to a page. Again, keeping your eyes closed put your finger somewhere on the page. This is similar to what a virus does when it inserts into a genome. It randomly inserts into a "word" somewhere in the set, with chromosomes being the volumes. Now, ask yourself if it is probable that two people could randomly put their finger on the same letter in the same encyclopedia set. If there are 3 billion letters in an encyclopedia, the chances of two people putting their same finger on the same letter are 1 in 3 billion. Now, instead of just two people putting their finger on the same letter, imagine 6 billion people all putting their finger on the same letter. This would seem very improbable, would it not? Therefore, it is theorized that each viral insertion seen in two separate genomes at the same DNA "letter" is a one time occurence, not the result of multiple random insertions. Therefore, if two people have the same insertion they must share a common ancestor that was the originator of a single infection.

Now, what happens when two SPECIES share the same insertion? It is the same mechanism. One organism had an egg or a sperm that was invaded by a virus that inserted a dysfunctional portion of viral DNA in a specific place in the genome. This was passed on to the child, and the children of that child spread those viral genes through the population over time. When this viral insertion was spread through most of the population a speciation event occurs. Now we have two species each carrying the same viral insertion. Repeat this a few times and you get the patterns we see between humans and apes.

In conclusion, it is not a matter of sharing the same virus, but sharing the same parents. No one has ever observed a retrovirus inserting into the same letter in the genomic DNA even 2 times per 100,000 infections. There are hotspots where viruses TEND to insert, but these areas are thousands of letters in size. Also, the ancient viral sequences we see in the human genome are related to the very same viruses that we see today. Therefore, there is no support that a virus in the past was able to insert in the same exact spot for every infection. Claiming that this type of virus existed is not justified and common ancestory is the only explanation that remains.

brightlights · #**138** 1st September 2004, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by Mistermystery

If both humans and apes share the same piece of data that says it's a viral infection, how do you suppose it got there?

well considering how similar the species are, is it too illogical to think that they share this disease?

brightlights · #**139** 1st September 2004, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by Loudmouth

I'll try and explain this using analogies. Learning science through analogies is often easier than using the scientific terminology.

Let's pretend that the letters of the human genome are represented by a complete set of encyclopedias. Now, close your eyes and pick a volume at random. Keeping your eyes closed, flip to a page. Again, keeping your eyes closed put your finger somewhere on the page. This is similar to what a virus does when it inserts into a genome. It randomly inserts into a "word" somewhere in the set, with chromosomes being the volumes. Now, ask yourself if it is probable that two people could randomly put their finger on the same letter in the same encyclopedia set. If there are 3 billion letters in an encyclopedia, the chances of two people putting their same finger on the same letter are 1 in 3 billion. Now, instead of just two people putting their finger on the same letter, imagine 6 billion people all putting their finger on the same letter. This would seem very improbable, would it not? Therefore, it is theorized that each viral insertion seen in two separate genomes at the same DNA "letter" is a one time occurence, not the result of multiple random insertions. Therefore, if two people have the same insertion they must share a common ancestor that was the originator of a single infection.

Now, what happens when two SPECIES share the same insertion? It is the same mechanism. One organism had an egg or a sperm that was invaded by a virus that inserted a dysfunctional portion of viral DNA in a specific place in the genome. This was passed on to the child, and the children of that child spread those viral genes through the population over time. When this viral insertion was spread through most of the population a speciation event occurs. Now we have two species each carrying the same viral insertion. Repeat this a few times and you get the patterns we see between humans and apes.

In conclusion, it is not a matter of sharing the same virus, but sharing the same parents. No one has ever observed a retrovirus inserting into the same letter in the genomic DNA even 2 times per 100,000 infections. There are hotspots where viruses TEND to insert, but these areas are thousands of letters in size. Also, the ancient viral sequences we see in the human genome are related to the very same viruses that we see today. Therefore, there is no support that a virus in the past was able to insert in the same exact spot for every infection. Claiming that this type of virus existed is not justified and common ancestory is the only explanation that remains.

ok im seeing this now, i understand better, thank you. a few questions though. how do we pick out a viral insertion? how do we know this is a viral insertion and not a similar trait in both ape and human genome? How do we know the process is random?

Loudmouth · #**140** 1st September 2004, 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by brightlights

ok im seeing this now, i understand better, thank you. a few questions though. how do we pick out a viral insertion?

We know that these are viral genes because they are the same genes we find in viruses today. These genes code for the protein coat that make up the outside of the virus, a gene that codes for an enzyme that inserts the viral gene into the host genome, and the third type I can't remember at the moment (darn memory). Also, the viral genes are flanked by what are called LTR's. This stands for Long Terminal Repeats. These are repetitive sequences of DNA that are not found in human DNA (except around viral genes). Needless to say, viral genes stick out like a sore thumb.

how do we know this is a viral insertion and not a similar trait in both ape and human genome?

They very well might serve a similar function, but at the moment that function is unknown, and they may have no function at all. In an earlier post I linked to a study that discovered an ERV that may be essential in placental development. This ERV is shared by all placental mammals, so ERV's can have a functional. However, these are still viral genes. For instance, if I used a computer keyboard to push a nail in, does that make it a hammer? Of course not. The original function of these ERV's are quite obvious as is their origin.

How do we know the process is random?

Through observation, otherwise known as scientific evidence. This picture shows places where HIV (the blue dots) and other retroviruses inserted into the cells in the study. They mapped 3,000 + insertions and not one is repeated. However, they did find that HIV prefers spots that are close to functional genes, but as you can see the insertions are spread throughout the genome.