Endogenous retroviruses

JohnR7 · #**111** 31st August 2004, 04:54 AM

Originally Posted by Jet Black

we know for a fact that removal of certain massive stretches of DNA has no effect.

Except for the limp and the noticable twitch, it has no effect. Right?

Jet Black · #**112** 31st August 2004, 04:55 AM

Originally Posted by JohnR7

Except for the limp and the noticable twitch, it has no effect. Right?

nope, really no effect john. see notice how almost all the mice had no problem apart from one in which a particular pseudogene was affected, right? you might have missed that bit.

Loudmouth · #**113** 31st August 2004, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by JohnR7

The arguement "against" Endogenous retroviruses does not come from YEC's, it comes from science. The very foundation that this theory is built on has already been falsified. So it is just a matter of time before the whole theory is going to come down like a stack of cards. Two key points are "vestages" & "junk DNA". These both have been and continue to be falsifed theorys.

No one is saying that ERV's are not used for other functions. In fact, all mammals have a common ERV that is thought to be involved in placental development and may have been the main thrust behind the evolution of the placenta:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=9619102

Secondly, ERV's can do three things, help the body, hurt the body, or do nothing. They are no different than a simple mutation in this respect. However, the point that you and many other creationist miss is that these genes code for viral proteins. These genes are what the virus uses to insert it's DNA/RNA into the host chromosome, build protien coats, and help the virus replicate. For instance, the ERV responsible for placental development originally made viruses.

Thirdly, the human ERV's differ from individual to individual. That is, there are ERV's that are not common to all humans. Therefore, according to your brand of creationism, that means some humans are designed differently than other humans and that there may be two "kinds" of humans. If you subscribe to the notion that ERV's are used as either punishment for sinning or for design, then perhaps you could tell me what the ERV's do in the following two studies:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=14757818

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=11591322

If every ERV's has such an impact on how a body functions then you should be able to tell which individuals have which ERV without searching their DNA. Could you please tell me how to do that?

Quite simply, ERV's do support common ancestory, they do cause disease and changes in morphology, and they also are neutral reminants of failed infections. The evidence is in total support of this.

JohnR7 · #**114** 31st August 2004, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by Loudmouth

If you subscribe to the notion that ERV's are used as either punishment for sinning or for design, then perhaps you could tell me what the ERV's do in the following two studies:

That would tend to create more questions, then it would provide answers. The Bible clearly says that everything God created was "good". We usually do not consider a virus to be a good thing.

Also, the Bible is mostly concerned with the last 6000 years. From what I have read about these ERV's they are suppose to go back a lot further than that.

The real question is why did not natural selection eliminate them? If they do not provide some sort of advanatage, then they should have gotten selected out.

Data · #**115** 31st August 2004, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by JohnR7

The real question is why did not natural selection eliminate them? If they do not provide some sort of advanatage, then they should have gotten selected out.

They would only be actively selected out if they had a disadvantage. If I have a ERV in a non-coding segment, but you don't - then do you have an advantage? Do I? We both don't, therefore natural selection does not occur.

The majority (anyone know the exact percentage?) of our DNA just does nothing. It sits there, getting copied, but does nothing. Never gets read out into proteins, like the DNA that matters.

Loudmouth · #**116** 31st August 2004, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by JohnR7

That would tend to create more questions, then it would provide answers. The Bible clearly says that everything God created was "good". We usually do not consider a virus to be a good thing.

So who created the viruses that cause cancer, MS, and a slew of other diseases? And again, there are ERV insertions that are not common to all humans, some have it some don't. Therefore, it begs the question: Are some people designed differently or are some people cursed by more sin than others? Or, as evolution contends, are these ERV's neutral and passed along randomly like other neutral mutations?

Also, the Bible is mostly concerned with the last 6000 years. From what I have read about these ERV's they are suppose to go back a lot further than that.

So you are contending that humans have been around for millions of years? Are you saying that God gave us ERV's with the appearance of age in order to deceive us?

The real question is why did not natural selection eliminate them? If they do not provide some sort of advanatage, then they should have gotten selected out.

As I stated before, ERV's can be beneficial, netural, or a detriment. The beneficial ERV's are kept, such as the ERV involved in placental development. The detrimental ones are removed through natural selection. The neutral ERV's are passed randomly which is why it is rare for an entire population to have a neutral ERV in common. That is why having 7 neutral ERV's in common with another species is such strong support for common ancestory.

Also, I might also add that the mutations occuring WITHIN the ERV's also follows evolutionary phylogenies and morphology.

JohnR7 · #**117** 31st August 2004, 11:37 PM

Originally Posted by Loudmouth

So who created the viruses that cause cancer, MS, and a slew of other diseases?

God created everything, and He created it to be good. But then man and the devil made a mess out of things. If you built a brand new beautiful house and then your teenage son had a wild party and trashed the house, are you going to blame the builder, because the house is trashed?

And again, there are ERV insertions that are not common to all humans, some have it some don't. Therefore, it begs the question: Are some people designed differently or are some people cursed by more sin than others? Or, as evolution contends, are these ERV's neutral and passed along randomly like other neutral mutations?

Some people are more cursed by sin than others. God offers us a choice, blessing or curse, health or sickness, poverty or prosperity. Each and every individual at some point in their life, gets to make that choice.

So you are contending that humans have been around for millions of years?

Man as we now know him has been around for about 6000 years. Before that there could have been what has been refered to as human like or humanoids. But not humans as we now know them.

Are you saying that God gave us ERV's with the appearance of age in order to deceive us?

God does not deceive people, but at times He will allow them to be deceived. People do a pretty good job of deceiving themselves and others.

The neutral ERV's are passed randomly which is why it is rare for an entire population to have a neutral ERV in common. That is why having 7 neutral ERV's in common with another species is such strong support for common ancestory.

Only if you can show they were added and not there all along. Otherwise, species may have a lot in common without having evolved from a common ancestor. There are other explainations for why they would have so much common DNA.

Jimmy The Hand · #**118** 31st August 2004, 11:40 PM

Some people are more cursed by sin than others. God offers us a choice, blessing or curse, health or sickness, poverty or prosperity. Each and every individual at some point in their life, gets to make that choice.

So you are saying those stricken by sickness are unrepentant?

Good grief.

Even Jesus walked among the lepers.

JohnR7 · #**119** 31st August 2004, 11:40 PM

Originally Posted by Data

The majority (anyone know the exact percentage?) of our DNA just does nothing. It sits there, getting copied, but does nothing. Never gets read out into proteins, like the DNA that matters.

This is getting falsified more and more very day. You need to keep up more with the latest research.

JohnR7 · #**120** 31st August 2004, 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by Jimmy The Hand

So you are saying those stricken by sickness are unrepentant?

Good grief.

Even Jesus walked among the lepers.

Yes, Jesus walked amoung the lepers, because He was sent to rescue and save those who needed rescued and saved. God is no respector of persons, if one person can be healthy, then everyone can be healthy. Jesus went about healing and doing good. That is the work that God desires to do in our lives. He represents life, health and healing. It is his desire to heal everyone that comes to Him. He is not always able to, but He would like to heal them all. In fact salvation, or to save someone, means to heal them and make them whole.