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  #11  
Old 22nd February 2004, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by inkidinkido
"Seeing as how the US is not a theocracy, it doesnt really matter what your particular religion thinks about it, therefore it has no say in how others should live their lives."

Religious beliefs are perfectly legitimate sources of policy even - no, especially - in the United States, although presently the range and scope of such new policy (as with any new policy) admittedly is severely constrained by existing policy. That this is some how legally invalid is a common mispercetion. Yes, such policy must be stripped of certain religious content, but there is no inherent restraint on its origin or application.

Suppose that some particular religion A has as a tenant or present application that we should make war on nation B. Nothing prevents our policy makers for enabling and executing a war against B. And nothing prevents the public or the policy makers from voting for the war againt B because they subscribe to or are sympathetic to religion A.

I am not suggesting that we should make war. But I do want it to be made clear that religion as a system of values or rationality is as equally valid a basis for policy as is any other system of values or rationality.

The difference is that while one can in policy set as or appeal to as informative context a declaration of Universal Human Rights as a system of values or rationality, one probably can not get away with (constitutionally today) appealing to God's Righteous Requirements as a system of values or rationality. But stripped of religious language, the only constraints in scope and application - so far as I am aware - are those of existing policy.

If a majority believe firmly and without reservation that Xenu will rain fire down upon the town of Denver, Colorado next week, it is perfectly legally valid (though perhaps not expedient) to enact and (unless there have been anti-evacuation laws created recently) enforce a policy of the evacuation of Denver, Colorado, early next week.

You see, it is not the origin of the policy that matters. It is only its language, and that its scope and application are constrained by existing policy.
It doesn't matter what the policy is, or where it was derived from. But to be made into law, it must be able to stand up to scrutiny on it's own, without using religion as a crutch. If a bill can;t stand up to legal and logical scrutiny without using religion to back it up, then it violates Seperation of Church and State by enacting a religious policy into national law.

If the opposers of gay marriage had a good legal reason to oppose gay marriage, then we wouldn't be seeing the constant barage of arguements refering to morality, tradition and God.
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  #12  
Old 22nd February 2004, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by inkidinkido
"Seeing as how the US is not a theocracy, it doesnt really matter what your particular religion thinks about it, therefore it has no say in how others should live their lives."

Religious beliefs are perfectly legitimate sources of policy even - no, especially - in the United States, although presently the range and scope of such new policy (as with any new policy) admittedly is severely constrained by existing policy. That this is some how legally invalid is a common mispercetion. Yes, such policy must be stripped of certain religious content, but there is no inherent restraint on its origin or application.

Suppose that some particular religion A has as a tenant or present application that we should make war on nation B. Nothing prevents our policy makers for enabling and executing a war against B. And nothing prevents the public or the policy makers from voting for the war againt B because they subscribe to or are sympathetic to religion A.

I am not suggesting that we should make war. But I do want it to be made clear that religion as a system of values or rationality is as equally valid a basis for policy as is any other system of values or rationality.

The difference is that while one can in policy set as or appeal to as informative context a declaration of Universal Human Rights as a system of values or rationality, one probably can not get away with (constitutionally today) appealing to God's Righteous Requirements as a system of values or rationality. But stripped of religious language, the only constraints in scope and application - so far as I am aware - are those of existing policy.

If a majority believe firmly and without reservation that Xenu will rain fire down upon the town of Denver, Colorado next week, it is perfectly legally valid (though perhaps not expedient) to enact and (unless there have been anti-evacuation laws created recently) enforce a policy of the evacuation of Denver, Colorado, early next week.

You see, it is not the origin of the policy that matters. It is only its language, and that its scope and application are constrained by existing policy.
This is not true under current law (although in the past it might have been true). Current legal interpretations are governed by the Lemon Test (after the Supreme Court decision of Lemon vs. Kurtzman, 1971).

The Lemon Test is a 3 part test which determines whether a law impermissibly mixes Church and State:

(i) a statute [or public policy] must have a secular legislative purpose

(ii) the principal effect of of the statute [or policy] must neither advance nor inhibit religion

(iii) the statute [or policy] must not foster "excessive [government] entanglement with religion"

Under the Lemon Test, your example fails section (i), since it does not have a secular legislative purpose, but is based upon a religion. It would probably fail section (ii) as well, since a government making a law based on a prophecy of one particular religion, or the religious feelings of one particular religion, could quite possibly be seen as a government endorsement of that religion.

Cheers,

The San Diego Atheist
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  #13  
Old 22nd February 2004, 06:54 AM
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Back to the OP:

Under California law, sexual orientation is defined as a "suspect category", as is gender, race, ethnic origin, age, and religion. In California law, any law which discriminates against, either directly or indirectly, a "suspect category" must be looked at much more closely, and all "suspect categories" are entitled to equal protection under the law.

One reason the justices this week may have refused to grant an injunction is that, under California law, it looks like the DOMA law passed a few years ago by California voters will in fact fail the equal protection clause of the California constitution.

Cheers,

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  #14  
Old 22nd February 2004, 12:10 PM
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Is America to become another Sodom or Gomorrah?
Perhaps you should have read Ezekiel a bit closer, as the sins of Sodom are clearly listed and told to us all as an example of what she was doing. If you missed it when it was said up above my post, I'll just post it again for ya.

"Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy." -Ezekiel 16:49

So yeah, i'm just curious as to how you can say that homosexuality destroyed Sodom when the bible itself says that Arrogance, Gluttony, Slothfulness, and Apathy towards others in need were the reasons that city were destroyed. Please explain your viewpoint with this verse now in mind.
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  #15  
Old 22nd February 2004, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt Never Existed
Perhaps you should have read Ezekiel a bit closer, as the sins of Sodom are clearly listed and told to us all as an example of what she was doing. If you missed it when it was said up above my post, I'll just post it again for ya.

"Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy." -Ezekiel 16:49

So yeah, i'm just curious as to how you can say that homosexuality destroyed Sodom when the bible itself says that Arrogance, Gluttony, Slothfulness, and Apathy towards others in need were the reasons that city were destroyed. Please explain your viewpoint with this verse now in mind.
Just another one of dem evil Liberals, going against the plain words of the Bible to justify his own sins, must be!!
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  #16  
Old 22nd February 2004, 04:48 PM
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Originally posted by : The Lord Is Coming



Equal protection under the law...

Equal protection under the law should not extend to sexual
orientation.

This matter of homosexual "marriages" is totally ridiculous. I can
understand equal protection under the law based on race, color,
creed, age, and gender, but to think there should be equal rights
based on sexual orientation is patently absurd and I believe a
misinterpretation of the Constitution.

Is America to become another Sodom or Gomorrah? The steep decline in
moral values we are witnessing is very troubling and a very bad
omen. I recently heard that more people watch pornography than all
sporting events combined. Do we not fear God anymore?

What God did to Sodom and Gomorrah, He can do to America. In fact,
what He did to those two cities was meant to be a warning to future
generations not to go down that road.
Do you have any actual reason other than personal prejudice why a group of law abiding citizens should be excluded from the 14th amendment?
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  #17  
Old 22nd February 2004, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Volos
[/color]Do you have any actual reason other than personal prejudice why a group of law abiding citizens should be excluded from the 14th amendment?

ahhhhh......no


Volos
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This is our chance to answer that call. This is our moment. This is our time – to put our people back to work and open doors of opportunity for our kids; to restore prosperity and promote the cause of peace; to reclaim the American Dream and reaffirm that fundamental truth – that out of many, we are one; that while we breathe, we hope, and where we are met with cynicism, and doubt, and those who tell us that we can’t, we will respond with that timeless creed that sums up the spirit of a people:

Yes We Can. "

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  #18  
Old 22nd February 2004, 04:56 PM
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Because there is nothing immoral about one's race, color, creed, age, or gender. But homosexuality is an abomination unto the Lord.
The views of your personal religion have absolutely nothing to do with the secular law. You can use your religious views to make choices about your own life but not to forbid the civil rights of fellow citizens. I find it sad that you would promote discrimination against individuals rather then show love and support for them, even when you disagree or feel concern over their lives.

Do we not fear God anymore?
Well, I'm sure not. What kind of loving father wants you to be frightened of him?
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  #19  
Old 22nd February 2004, 05:00 PM
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[quote]
Originally posted by : Tangnefedd

In the UK you cannot descriminate against someone's sexual orientation anymore than you can descriminate against gender, age, race and creed. Having said that I do think the word 'marriage' should only be applied to heterosexual couples. However, there is no reason why a partnership agreement, with a ceremony, if desired, should not be held by gays or anyone else who wishes to make a commitment to each other.
In the United states following the Civil war persons of color were heavily discriminated against and were prevented from enjoying equal protection under the law. One of worst things was segregation. People of color had separate schools separate drinking fountains, separate bathrooms, Separate funeral homes, separate entrances in most places of business. Violating these laws was a serious crime. People of color who dared to drink out of a water fountain labeled “white only” were usually severely beaten by the police and then sentenced to extensive jail time.



Eventually the segregation laws were struck down and the main ruling was that separate is NOT equal.



Calling same sex marriages something else is the same thing. It makes them separate an unequal to heterosexual marriages. The only reason to apply a separate name is to allow those who wish to discriminate the opportunity to claim that since it has a different name same sex marriage is not a REAL marriage and continue to promote discrimination.
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  #20  
Old 22nd February 2004, 05:03 PM
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I don't see this as an equal protection issue. Everyone has the right to marry another unmarried person of the opposite gender. The same rights and their corresponding protections apply to everyone.
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