Falsifications of the Worldwide flood

AlHailThePowerOfJesusName · #**181** 12th May 2004, 12:30 PM

That convinced me

What I said was not meant to convince you, it was meant to inform you that you have not convinced me.

Mistermystery · #**182** 12th May 2004, 12:49 PM

And I said, what I said, was meant to be said in a sarcastical manner. What I mean by that is that I am not intrested in your personal opinion, and if it's supporterted by proof, then please present it.

AlHailThePowerOfJesusName · #**183** 13th May 2004, 04:49 PM

and if it's supporterted by proof, then please present it.

How much do you want?

AlHailThePowerOfJesusName · #**184** 13th May 2004, 05:11 PM

Why is it unlikely? Why would they make a story about a local flood? Surely living near places where there are plenty of floods, there would be no reason to think any one of them would be particularly special. I would think that through oral traditions they were distorted into a local flood through a number of years. And their distortion is perfectly consistent with the Bible that records that nations forsook the true God, and ended up worshiping things like Golden Calfs, and other Idols made of wood and clay, and they would want to do away with the Concept of God’s Judgement in history that show the power of the real God.

if some are local floods why not all? you know that stories grow with time don’t you?

again I shall say they most likely wandered away from the actual history, if some were global floods why not all?

For example there is far to much coal on earth to have come from plants buried by a single worldwide flood and sedimentary layers mentioned refute the flood rather than substantiate it.

How so?

Whatever the alleged reason a myth is a myth and this one was used to explain the origin of different languages. At the time of the tower of Babel there still should not have been enough people on earth to build a big tower, let alone to give rise to all the language and cultural groups on earth. Of course the Hebrews who promulgated the myth had no idea just how many different peoples and language groups there were in the wider world.

A myth is a myth, correct, but this is not a myth. There were enough people to build any big tower, and give rise to the people groups, I saw the number 256 somewhere, and I think it is obvious that someone did not do his math right. However it seems that Drotar has already done adequate work on this point, though I would have argued that there were more like a few thousand at the time.

You addressed them but you didn’t refute any of them. All that you claimed was easily shown to be wrong, or totally inadequate, or completely irrelevant.

Assuming you had a method to that I am going to address what you are talking about. I had been waiting for an invitation to go back and address the other stuff which I missed, and I figure that this is about as close as I am going to get to one so I am going to take advantage of it.

I put them together to show how many there were and to give any YEC who wanted to the opportunity to try to "debunk" them by bumping one of the threads. You haven't "debunked" any of them and neither has any other YEC. It is YEC that is bunk and not these falsifications of the global flood myth.

Gave me an opportunity to debunk them by bumping up the threads? why didn’t you tell me to *bump them* before I got into this discussion? Why don’t you just challenge a YEC to bump the threads, instead of hurling links after links like trying to catapult an elephant, so no matter how much any YEC does you can always say “you haven’t dealt with all the problems yet.” or something of that nature ????

The theory is that memories of local floods were exaggerated to become part of religious mythology. These stories were altered through time to give religious instruction about the necessity of obedience to the Gods. You will note that is it often some obedient person who was warned. As to escaping in a boat at least as many escaped by climbing things but why do you find it surprising the people are supposed to have escaped a flood in a boat? The Summerians were a dominate and early culture in the area and their mythology was incorporated into Babylonian mythology. The Summerian Flood story is the earliest version IIRC and the Hebrews probably borrowed it second hand from the Babylonians during the Babylonian captivity and of course any primative culture that has had contact with Christian missionaries may have incorporated elements of the Hebrew flood myth into their own mythology.

“the theory” whose theory? Not mine. I don’t understand why one person who had seen and escaped the flood, or a whole village for that matter who escaped a flood, would let some priest exaggerate their history into something that it was not. It is obviously an obedient person who was warned, because the flood was meant to destroy the wicked. Interesting that the Babylonian Civilization was one of the few civilizations that kept written records... no wonder their story sounds so much like the true Biblical account... If you read the book of Daniel, you would find that it is the Babylonians who did the adopting during Israel's captivity, and as far as I know, it was the Missionaries that were the ones who discovered that the flood stories were so widespread, not influenced other histories.

Most YEC groups have abandoned the vapor canopy because it is just not physically workable. Many of them are addressed on the threads I linked on the first page but I will get to some of the others later. It may not be until next week.

Right just like Evolutionist groups have abandoned Uniformitarianism because that is not physically workable either.

regarding the molecular clock:
The hundred thousand years for the Homo Sapiens is the result of assuming that Eve was a Chimp, and using substitutional mutations this many must have occurred over this long to date Eve... But as for the Biblical Eve... I don’t think Dark brown and furry was her thing..... Just a hunch.

Every thing else:

To say that the Flood is Falsified by Geology, Paleontology, etc. you have to be more specific.

As for the J and P scenario, it does not weave together 2 different versions of the story.

And sharks could not only hear the cause of them from a long way away, but they would also easily notice a change in water pressure.... more later if you like.

and More later from your friendly neighborhood creationist...

Mistermystery · #**185** 13th May 2004, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by AlHailThePowerOfJesusName

How much do you want?

I've seen this trend more with your posts: First you play some kind of challanging post like this one, where it seems like you've got the upperhand, yet you fail to make any strong case against any other points. Why should *I* tell you how you should present your evidence/ instead of playing these games. present it.

Jet Black · #**186** 13th May 2004, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by AlHailThePowerOfJesusName

regarding the molecular clock:
The hundred thousand years for the Homo Sapiens is the result of assuming that Eve was a Chimp, and using substitutional mutations this many must have occurred over this long to date Eve... But as for the Biblical Eve... I don’t think Dark brown and furry was her thing..... Just a hunch.

Homo sapiens has been around for quite a while longer than 150ky. Mitochondrial eve was definitely a homo sapiens. Y chromosome adam, who was born some 80,000 years after Mt Eve was also homo sapiens. the origins of the homonid line have nothing to do with our common ancestry with the chimpanzees (note that we were never chimps, we had a common ancestor)

Mistermystery · #**187** 13th May 2004, 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by AlHailThePowerOfJesusName

Why is it unlikely?

because there is no physical evidence for a global flood.

again I shall say they most likely wandered away from the actual history, if some were global floods why not all?

because there is no physical evidence for a global flood.

How so?

because there is no physical evidence for a global flood, and those layers prove to you that there isn't any.

A myth is a myth, correct, but this is not a myth.

Then prove it.

There were enough people to build any big tower, and give rise to the people groups, I saw the number 256 somewhere, and I think it is obvious that someone did not do his math right.

How is that obvious? Mathematically it's impossible to have 6 billion people over 4000 years starting from 8 people. Especially if you want to build the pyramids, hunnebedden, tower of babel, and god knows what other types of settlements. Give us counter math, or don't post at all.

Assuming you had a method to that I am going to address what you are talking about. I had been waiting for an invitation to go back and address the other stuff which I missed, and I figure that this is about as close as I am going to get to one so I am going to take advantage of it.

So instead of actually adressing the points you've made we've got to ask you for it? with sugar on top? pretty pretty pretty please give us the evidence?

that is the most incredible, ignorant and most of all STUPIDIST THING ever.

Gave me an opportunity to debunk them by bumping up the threads? why didn’t you tell me to *bump them* before I got into this discussion? Why don’t you just challenge a YEC to bump the threads, instead of hurling links after links like trying to catapult an elephant, so no matter how much any YEC does you can always say “you haven’t dealt with all the problems yet.” or something of that nature ????

you haven't dealt with any problems yet.

regarding the molecular clock:
The hundred thousand years for the Homo Sapiens is the result of assuming that Eve was a Chimp, and using substitutional mutations this many must have occurred over this long to date Eve... But as for the Biblical Eve... I don’t think Dark brown and furry was her thing..... Just a hunch.

Every thing else:

To say that the Flood is Falsified by Geology, Paleontology, etc. you have to be more specific.

Okay: every study conducted in geology, paleontology etc have falsified the global flood.

There we go. as specific as it gets.

As for the J and P scenario, it does not weave together 2 different versions of the story.

jp?

Frumious Bandersnatch · #**188** 13th May 2004, 05:48 PM

A myth is a myth, correct, but this is not a myth. There were enough people to build any big tower, and give rise to the people groups, I saw the number 256 somewhere, and I think it is obvious that someone did not do his math right. However it seems that Drotar has already done adequate work on this point, though I would have argued that there were more like a few thousand at the time.

Did you read what Drotar actually said? Here are two quotes.

256 couldn't be a better number.

He doesn't seem to be arguing for a few thousand.

I'm not a YEC- what this means is that I believe Adam and Eve might have lived 80,000 years ago. The Flood- around when Mito. Adam is dated. The Tower of Babel directly afterward, leaving 50,000 years to present for all these cultures to diversify. Perhaps only 12 different languages were originally created- the rest are dialects that "evolved" into different languages gradually.

Do you think that Adam lived 80,000 years ago?

The tower of Babel myth is set just 102 years after the flood had supposedly reduced the entire population of the earth to 8 people. http://www.achievebalance.com/data/timeline/

You have three families left on the whole earth and yet you say there were a few thousand people around to build a city and tower "whose top may reach to heaven" just 102 years later. I did the calculation based on a population doubling every generation which is I think is far higher than any bronze age population could grow, even if they weren't trying to survive the after affects of a devasting worldwide flood.

I have pointed out why the great disparity and wide variety in flood myths is solid evidence against the myth that members of a single family survived a worldwide flood a few thousand years ago. Repeating the same bogus nonsense about it over and over does not make it evidence for a worldwide flood. The only "evidence" you seem to be able to come up with is evidence against your myth rather than for it.

The frumious Bandersnatch

Mistermystery · #**189** 13th May 2004, 05:53 PM

I'm not a YEC- what this means is that I believe Adam and Eve might have lived 80,000 years ago. The Flood- around when Mito. Adam is dated. The Tower of Babel directly afterward, leaving 50,000 years to present for all these cultures to diversify. Perhaps only 12 different languages were originally created- the rest are dialects that "evolved" into different languages gradually.Sst.. Did you hear that? That was the sound of a couple of goalposts that were shifted back again.

Jet Black · #**190** 13th May 2004, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by Drotar

You're basically asking then, where did all these odd cultures etc. come from so rapidly by mentioning specific architectural examples of diverse cultures? I'm not a YEC- what this means is that I believe Adam and Eve might have lived 80,000 years ago. The Flood- around when Mito. Adam is dated.

<snip stuff>

Noah's wife and the wives of the three sons were of diverse backgrounds, thus allowing for the Mito Eve date to precede the Mito Adam date- in which all the men were from one family.

first of all, there is no mitochondrial adam. Mitochondria are the energy producing organelles in our cells, and are only inherited along the female line. While the egg has large numbers of mitochondria in it, the sperm onlz has a few, and these all power the motor and break off when the sperm breaks into the egg. "Adam" is generally referred to as Y Chromosome Adam, because obviously, the y-chromosome is only inherited along the male line.

Now given a microscopic population such as that which followed the flood (about 10 people) both mitochondrial eve and y chromosome adam (well, we'd have to call him y chromosome noah really) would appear at basically the same time, unless of course Noah's grandsons only slept with their sisters and never with the daughters of any of the other brothers. Genetically though, Mt Eve predates Y chromosome Adam by a good 80,000 years. and there are a number of different lineages which all have different Mt Eves, throughout the period between 150kya and now. For example the caucasian branch have their own adam and eve that appear later, as does the mongoloid branch (just to use really big groups) national and regional branches have their own adams and eves which appear later still - in short, there are a whole load of eves that appear in the time between the original Mt Eve and Y Chromosome Adam, and there shouldn't be, if the flood happened and the whole human population was dessimated so thoroughly.