Creation & EvolutionForum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too.
I don't see how ANY coral can possibly make it through a global deluge. They don't seem to handle slight global temperature changes much less massive temperature changes, salinity changes, etc etc.
The coral live in a area that during the last ice age was above sea level. When the ice melted, the ocean level went up 300 feet. 15,000 years ago, there was no coral there.
many places where people live get barely any rainfall whatsoever, so Yes.
Some of these peoples don't have flood myths, some have migrated from areas that do flood and some have borrowed myths from other peoples they have had contact with and some areas that don't have water now did have water during the neolithic wet period. Not all deserts are created equal. We think of Egypt as having a lot of desert but the Egyptians depended on the annual flooding of the Nile for example.
No. Have you ever played the telephone game? if so, then you realize how things can be distorted.... now think over thousands of years....
Yes, this is how local floods got distorted into global flood myths.
It would make sense assuming that there was a great flood.
No, the level of variation in flood myths does not make sense even after a few thousand years but it does make sense if many different peoples with different religious experiences experienced many different large local floods.
No people were around to see these events.
Noah and his family supposedly witnessed the flood event didn't they?
Many times Even God's chosen people the isrealites decided to forsake the one true God for Idols, and false Gods... why is that even a problem? Most of these probably sprang up a little while after the tower of Babel.
The problem is that the tower of Babel is also a myth. Relying on one myth to try to overcome problems with an other myth is not very convincing.
No. Have you ever played the telephone game? if so, then you realize how things can be distorted.... now think over thousands of years....
lol, you use the example of the telephone game in order to explain the differences in flood myths, but you never once even entertain the global flood itself is a result of precisely the same telephone game?
__________________ MSci MSc ARCS DIC PhD..... yes, I am bragging.
lol, you use the example of the telephone game in order to explain the differences in flood myths, but you never once even entertain the global flood itself is a result of precisely the same telephone game?
JM: I agree 100%. The same logic applies to the bible and the oral traditions that were handed down through the Hebrews before pen was put to papyrus.
How do you know that, why couldn't Noah himself have written this story? The others being oral traditions have appearantly not been written down until recently, but the Biblical account on the other hand was written in the old testament, and has been preserved by hebrew priests for thousands of years.
Some of these peoples don't have flood myths, some have migrated from areas that do flood and some have borrowed myths from other peoples they have had contact with and some areas that don't have water now did have water during the neolithic wet period. Not all deserts are created equal. We think of Egypt as having a lot of desert but the Egyptians depended on the annual flooding of the Nile for example.
And what makes you so sure they all just decided to make up a flood story or borrow one from another group? Its not like ancient civilizations had to meet some sort of quota for their myths. When I was mentioning deserts, I did not mention Egypt, though it seems to be your only desert explanation. What makes you so sure that any civilization living around water would automatically come up with a story that there was once a universal flood?
this was an interesting link about the flood, you should check it out.
No, the level of variation in flood myths does not make sense even after a few thousand years but it does make sense if many different peoples with different religious experiences experienced many different large local floods.
no it doesn't, because then they would not be global, the majority would be local, and there would be less with such striking similarities.
Noah and his family supposedly witnessed the flood event didn't they?
The flood event yes, but we were discussing the creation event which you brought up.
The problem is that the tower of Babel is also a myth. Relying on one myth to try to overcome problems with an other myth is not very convincing.
no it's the same 'myth' but even you must realize that at one point in time all humanity was together anyway, it is unavoidable. I supported this more in another thread and I never got much of a response... http://christianforums.com/t105761&page=6
__________________ Ps. 119:105 "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path."
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Evolutionists can come up with all the wacko ideas they want, but they can't make a monkey out of me! To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Darwin is dead, and Christ is alive. Gotta love natural selection. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
And what makes you so sure they all just decided to make up a flood story or borrow one from another group? Its not like ancient civilizations had to meet some sort of quota for their myths. When I was mentioning deserts, I did not mention Egypt, though it seems to be your only desert explanation. What makes you so sure that any civilization living around water would automatically come up with a story that there was once a universal flood?
Actually many of them do describe local and not universal floods and the tremendous variety of flood myths makes it highly unlikely they all arose from the descendants of a single family who experience a single worldwide flood.
this was an interesting link about the flood, you should check it out.
I checked it out. Same old PRATT list. They even call on the vapor canopy nonsense. Of course some things claimed as evidence for the flood are evidence against it. For example there is far to much coal on earth to have come from plants buried by a single worldwide flood and sedimentary layers mentioned refute the flood rather than substantiate it. I can post more on their nonsense later if you want but I think everyone here has seen it all refuted many times over.
no it doesn't, because then they would not be global, the majority would be local, and there would be less with such striking similarities.
Many primative peoples considered their world to be all the world and priests and shamans would want to make the story as dramatic as possible to keep the faithful in line.
As to striking similarites, I only see them in those stories that arose in the Middle East and were clearly borrowed from the Summerian Myth and in peoples who incorporated Christian flood stories into their own mythology after contact with missionaries. I don't consider the common idea that some people survived a big flood in a boat to be such a remarkable coincidence. In many of them people survived by climbing up mountains. Maybe they have the more "true version". In several people climbed giant trees or giant ropes. In some the only survivors were animals who later became people.
no it's the same 'myth' but even you must realize that at one point in time all humanity was together anyway, it is unavoidable.
Yes but the idea that God confused languages to keep primative people from building a tower to heaven is an obvious myth. He doesn't bother stopping us from going into space but got really upset about a pile of rocks that supposedly got too high. Give us break. The tower of Babel myth is a primative attempt to explain the variety of languages and cultures in the area even though their primative attempt at explaining origins claims that all people descended from a single family that were recent survivors of a worldwide flood.
You have not refuted a single one of the many falsifications of the global flood myth and your supposed evidence from other mythologies is evidence against a single worldwide flood and not evidence for it.
the frumious Bandersnatch
Last edited by Frumious Bandersnatch; 4th May 2004 at 04:22 PM.
Actually many of them do describe local and not universal floods and the tremendous variety of flood myths makes it highly unlikely they all arose from the descendants of a single family who experience a single worldwide flood.
then those were about a local flood. Why is it highly unlikely? You seem to be looking at only what you want to see, you neglect to realize, or address the fact that many of them have an incredibly striking similarity like I have said countless times.
I checked it out. Same old PRATT list. They even call on the vapor canopy nonsense. Of course some things claimed as evidence for the flood are evidence against it. For example there is far to much coal on earth to have come from plants buried by a single worldwide flood and sedimentary layers mentioned refute the flood rather than substantiate it. I can post more on their nonsense later if you want but I think everyone here has seen it all refuted many times over.
Ok I will admit that vapor canopy thing I am not into, but I am sure I could argue any one of those other points, but for goodness sake I want this post to end so I can get on to that other one. But later on I would be interested to know exaclty why you think they are PRATTs, but that is still for a later time I guess.
Many primative peoples considered their world to be all the world and priests and shamans would want to make the story as dramatic as possible to keep the faithful in line.
As to striking similarites, I only see them in those stories that arose in the Middle East and were clearly borrowed from the Summerian Myth and in peoples who incorporated Christian flood stories into their own mythology after contact with missionaries. I don't consider the common idea that some people survived a big flood in a boat to be such a remarkable coincidence. In many of them people survived by climbing up mountains. Maybe they have the more "true version". In several people climbed giant trees or giant ropes. In some the only survivors were animals who later became people.
Right sure of course back to saying they are just religious mythology again... what happened to your local flood theorys? God Judges the world, only one family saved in a boat which God warned them ahead of time to build... I don't see how one could get any closer than that... unless you count spelling. And please explain how these stories are "clearly" borrowed from sumerian myths?
Yes but the idea that God confused languages to keep primative people from building a tower to heaven is an obvious myth. He doesn't bother stopping us from going into space but got really upset about a pile of rocks that supposedly got too high. Give us break. The tower of Babel myth is a primative attempt to explain the variety of languages and cultures in the area even though their primative attempt at explaining origins claims that all people descended from a single family that were recent survivors of a worldwide flood.
I am sorry, I honestly thought you would look deeper into this than a quick superficial glance with little analysis. The stone tower was not the point, God was not scared of them. It was the people's attitude... They thought they would build a tower to "Be" God, or escape God's wrath, or "ascend beyond God" It was their attitude of pride, which was the reason God did what he did.
You have not refuted a single one of the many falsifications of the global flood myth and your supposed evidence from other mythologies is evidence against a single worldwide flood and not evidence for it.
I have addressed quite a few things on her actually, but I thought the whole Idea was that I was going to refute them one by one on each individual threads... I don't honestly understand why you all feel that you must post all of these links in one thread, you dont' expect anyone to debunk them all at once do you?
__________________ Ps. 119:105 "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path."
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Evolutionists can come up with all the wacko ideas they want, but they can't make a monkey out of me! To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Darwin is dead, and Christ is alive. Gotta love natural selection. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
I don't honestly understand why you all feel that you must post all of these links in one thread, you dont' expect anyone to debunk them all at once do you?
gravitas. Feel free to bump the links.
__________________ MSci MSc ARCS DIC PhD..... yes, I am bragging.
then those were about a local flood. Why is it highly unlikely? You seem to be looking at only what you want to see, you neglect to realize, or address the fact that many of them have an incredibly striking similarity like I have said countless times.
If some are about local floods why not all? You do know that stories grow with time don't you?
How many of them have you actually read? Are you just taking the word of some YEC stite that there are "incredibly striking similarities"? I have read quite a few and it seems to me that there are at least as many where people escape to mountains as in a boat. IIRC the most striking similarity is that a single couple survives not a family. There are many where people escape in a boat or more than one boat but that is not really surprising if you think about it. Here is the link yet again. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html
Ok I will admit that vapor canopy thing I am not into, but I am sure I could argue any one of those other points, but for goodness sake I want this post to end so I can get on to that other one. But later on I would be interested to know exaclty why you think they are PRATTs, but that is still for a later time I guess.
Most YEC groups have abandoned the vapor canopy because it is just not physically workable. Many of them are addressed on the threads I linked on the first page but I will get to some of the others later. It may not be until next week.
Right sure of course back to saying they are just religious mythology again... what happened to your local flood theorys? God Judges the world, only one family saved in a boat which God warned them ahead of time to build... I don't see how one could get any closer than that... unless you count spelling. And please explain how these stories are "clearly" borrowed from sumerian myths?
The theory is that memories of local floods were exaggerated to become part of religious mythology. These stories were altered through time to give religious instruction about the necessity of obedience to the Gods. You will note that is it often some obedient person who was warned. As to escaping in a boat at least as many escaped by climbing things but why do you find it surprising the people are supposed to have escaped a flood in a boat? The Summerians were a dominate and early culture in the area and their mythology was incorporated into Babylonian mythology. The Summerian Flood story is the earliest version IIRC and the Hebrews probably borrowed it second hand from the Babylonians during the Babylonian captivity and of course any primative culture that has had contact with Christian missionaries may have incorporated elements of the Hebrew flood myth into their own mythology.
I am sorry, I honestly thought you would look deeper into this than a quick superficial glance with little analysis. The stone tower was not the point, God was not scared of them. It was the people's attitude... They thought they would build a tower to "Be" God, or escape God's wrath, or "ascend beyond God" It was their attitude of pride, which was the reason God did what he did.
Whatever the alleged reason a myth is a myth and this one was used to explain the origin of different languages. At the time of the tower of Babel there still should not have been enough people on earth to build a big tower, let alone to give rise to all the language and cultural groups on earth. Of course the Hebrews who promulgated the myth had no idea just how many different peoples and language groups there were in the wider world.
I have addressed quite a few things on her actually, but I thought the whole Idea was that I was going to refute them one by one on each individual threads...
You addressed them but you didn't refute any of them. All that you claimed was easily shown to be wrong or totally inadequate or completely irrelevant.
I don't honestly understand why you all feel that you must post all of these links in one thread, you dont' expect anyone to debunk them all at once do you?
I put them together to show how many there were and to give any YEC who wanted to the opportunity to try to "debunk" them by bumping one of the threads. You haven't "debunked" any of them and neither has any other YEC. It is YEC that is bunk and not these falsifications of the global flood myth.
The frumious Bandersnatch
Last edited by Frumious Bandersnatch; 5th May 2004 at 08:26 AM.
I'm not quite sure whether I'd call the tower of Babel a myth just yet.
It will EASILY account for the variety of races in such a short amount of time.
If a LARGE group of people were suddenly dispersed into smaller groups to interbreed with each other, then many simultaneous founder effects would incur genetic drifts. The language phenomena could be a driving force in reproductive selection that created a variety of races. We Asians share especially close ancestry with African pygmies for some reason (Scientific American, January 1999- I THINK). The split was fairly recent- yet enough for us to not only diversify into who we are, but for native americans to split yet again into another group different from us. Thus, it seems that the development of races was fairly quick and recent. Look at my pic- I have mostly Southern Chinese ancestry. It seems that RAPID genetic drift is the only way to account for our having branched from the pygmies. TTYL Jesus loves you!
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