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29th April 2004, 04:05 PM
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Reps: 113 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by AlHailThePowerOfJesusName ooh more bashing....:rolleyes:
do you realize that there is a worldwide tradition among natives of a global flood? Why would this be so if no such thing ever happened?
Because all civilizations experienced the agricultural trauama of overabundant amounts of water. => Because all civilizations necessarily were placed around large bodies of water. and according to current archaeological evidence, civilization appears to have originated in the Ararat/Babylon region which was the same place as the tower of Babel.
Define civilization. Last week, an article in Science found religious artifacts in Africa about 75,000 years old consisting of multiple ornamental shells uniformly crafted. Neanderthal religious expressions are dated to just afterwards. My Chinese ancestry dates back farther than 10,000 years. You've got to quote a source for that one. and all types of rocks (eg limestone, shale, granite, etc) occur in all geologic 'ages'. This indicates a common formation on a global scale - the same situation that would have been created by the mixing of sediment in a global flood.
First, do you have a source for that? Second, it would IF these mixed sediments were uniform throughout the geological strata. Actually, "strata" wouldn't exist if there were a worldwide flood that recently. Secondly, where did all the water come from and go to- there would have to be four times as much water as there is on the earth now. (Ross, The Genesis Question). Third, if the Flood lasted a year (as Genesis indicates) and it was a worldwide flood, what did the herbivores eat right after the flood. What did the carnivores eat- the herbivores? (That wouldn't make sense because their food supply very shortly would run out and then everything would go extinct.) Fourth, if the waters ascended beyond the Himilayans, how did Noah breathe? Fifth, how did the animals with weaker diaphrams than humans breathe? How did the plants that he supposedly took on the ark survive the elevation. I could go on and on man. If you don't believe in Darwinian evolution, I'm tolerant towards that even though I remain convinced for the most part of it. But if you're going to believe in a worldwide flood, that's the threshold for me to speak up. so whose shutting down rational thought?  certainly not me.
More later from your friendly neighborhood creationist...
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29th April 2004, 04:35 PM
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30th April 2004, 10:45 AM
|  | Mad Preacher
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Reps: 118 (power: 0) | | Because all civilizations experienced the agricultural trauama of overabundant amounts of water. => Because all civilizations necessarily were placed around large bodies of water.
All civilizations? What about the Native americans of the Plains? They experienced no "agricultural trauama" or how about the African nations? Or desert nomads? Define civilization. Last week, an article in Science found religious artifacts in Africa about 75,000 years old consisting of multiple ornamental shells uniformly crafted. Neanderthal religious expressions are dated to just afterwards. My Chinese ancestry dates back farther than 10,000 years. You've got to quote a source for that one.
You already know I have issues with your dating methods. After the tower of Babel humans migrated to different reigons. First, do you have a source for that? Second, it would IF these mixed sediments were uniform throughout the geological strata. Actually, "strata" wouldn't exist if there were a worldwide flood that recently. Secondly, where did all the water come from and go to- there would have to be four times as much water as there is on the earth now. (Ross, The Genesis Question). Third, if the Flood lasted a year (as Genesis indicates) and it was a worldwide flood, what did the herbivores eat right after the flood. What did the carnivores eat- the herbivores? (That wouldn't make sense because their food supply very shortly would run out and then everything would go extinct.) Fourth, if the waters ascended beyond the Himilayans, how did Noah breathe? Fifth, how did the animals with weaker diaphrams than humans breathe? How did the plants that he supposedly took on the ark survive the elevation. I could go on and on man. If you don't believe in Darwinian evolution, I'm tolerant towards that even though I remain convinced for the most part of it. But if you're going to believe in a worldwide flood, that's the threshold for me to speak up.
Source, Dr. Henry Morris, A Genesis Record. Actually, "strata" wouldn't exist if there were a worldwide flood that recently.
Bosh. , where did all the water come from and go to- there would have to be four times as much water as there is on the earth now.
Are you saying that God does not have the ability to create more water and take it away when he is done with it? and it was a worldwide flood, what did the herbivores eat right after the flood. What did the carnivores eat- the herbivores? (That wouldn't make sense because their food supply very shortly would run out and then everything would go extinct.)
I see it in my minds eye as God regrowing all the trees relatively fast. Remember the dove returned with an olive branch, So it seems that God preformed another miracle. Fifth, how did the animals with weaker diaphrams than humans breathe? How did the plants that he supposedly took on the ark survive the elevation.
I am sure you are going on and on but the problems you are coming up with are not intellecually honest.  They could easily breath because the air pressure was far higher than it would be at that elevation. The water covered the mountains, so the air was pushed upward.
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Last edited by AlHailThePowerOfJesusName; 30th April 2004 at 10:56 AM.
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30th April 2004, 10:52 AM
| | Mad Preacher
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Depending on where and when it hit. one second we are talking about the rise of civilisation, then all of a sudden you arbitrarily leap to the evolution of man (we didn't evolve from chimps, we share a common ancestor with them that wasn't exactly like either). you were talking about the emergence of civilisation in the ararat area (probably around jherico actually, for this is where wheat seems to have evolved) and I was asking if this includes all the other civilisations, such as those that emerged around the yellow river and so on. can you follow a conversation?
Of course you know that all humans are the descendant of one woman. The molecular clock has shown us that. The Civilizations migrated after the tower of Babel, so yes it would include them.
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Ps. 119:105 "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path."
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Evolutionists can come up with all the wacko ideas they want, but they can't make a monkey out of me!
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Darwin is dead, and Christ is alive. Gotta love natural selection.
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30th April 2004, 11:05 AM
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Reps: 5,365 (power: 27) | | | What molecular clock is that? (or is this going to be one of those butcherings of the Mitochondrial eve, and a funny acceptance of some modern science but not others?)
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30th April 2004, 03:05 PM
| | Mad Preacher
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Reps: 118 (power: 0) | | (or is this going to be one of those butcherings of the Mitochondrial eve, and a funny acceptance of some modern science but not others?)
The prevailing Idea right now is that the Mitochondrial eve lived about 150000 years ago. But that's substitutional mutations... I am not even going to get into that. But what I was trying to support here was my point that all humans came from the same place, and migrated from there. Most commonly the accepted hypothesis is the "Out of Africa" theories, from what I have heard, the africa part is merely speculation. Tracing the Mt Dna has shown us this 'Mitochondrial Eve' but this could only happen if there was a (relatively) small population, at one point in time. I was planning on making the point that this small population (like that at the building of the tower of Babel or the few amount of people left after Noah's flood) would have been necessary. But I realized that would support another point better considering this could also be evidence for the Biblical Eve as well. I didn't think it was going to be very convincing, so I decided to abandon it as a point in this discussion.
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Ps. 119:105 "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path."
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Evolutionists can come up with all the wacko ideas they want, but they can't make a monkey out of me!
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Darwin is dead, and Christ is alive. Gotta love natural selection.
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30th April 2004, 03:06 PM
| | Mad Preacher
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Reps: 118 (power: 0) | | (or is this going to be one of those butcherings of the Mitochondrial eve, and a funny acceptance of some modern science but not others?)
The prevailing Idea right now is that the Mitochondrial eve lived about 150000 years ago. But that's substitutional mutations... I am not even going to get into that. But what I was trying to support here was my point that all humans came from the same place, and migrated from there. Most commonly the accepted hypothesis is the "Out of Africa" theories, from what I have heard, the africa part is merely speculation. Tracing the Mt Dna has shown us this 'Mitochondrial Eve' but this could only happen if there was a (relatively) small population, at one point in time. I was planning on making the point that this small population (like that at the building of the tower of Babel or the few amount of people left after Noah's flood) would have been necessary. But I realized that would support another point better considering this could also be evidence for the Biblical Eve as well. I didn't think it was going to be very convincing, so I decided to abandon it as a point in this discussion.
More later from your friendly neighborhood creationist...
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Ps. 119:105 "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path."
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Evolutionists can come up with all the wacko ideas they want, but they can't make a monkey out of me!
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Darwin is dead, and Christ is alive. Gotta love natural selection.
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30th April 2004, 03:27 PM
| | WinAce > cdesign proponentsists
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Reps: 16,712 (power: 43) | | Originally Posted by AlHailThePowerOfJesusName Most commonly the accepted hypothesis is the "Out of Africa" theories, from what I have heard, the africa part is merely speculation.
based on evidence. Tracing the Mt Dna has shown us this 'Mitochondrial Eve' but this could only happen if there was a (relatively) small population, at one point in time.
false, it works for any sized population I was planning on making the point that this small population (like that at the building of the tower of Babel or the few amount of people left after Noah's flood) would have been necessary. But I realized that would support another point better considering this could also be evidence for the Biblical Eve as well. I didn't think it was going to be very convincing, so I decided to abandon it as a point in this discussion.
assuming the flood to be true, it would destroy all evidence for a biblical adam and eve in the germline. the same would be true especially for adam, since the only men were Noah and his sons (correct me if I am wrong) so y-chromosome "adam" should be 4kya and his name should be Noah.
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30th April 2004, 03:35 PM
| | WinAce > cdesign proponentsists
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Reps: 16,712 (power: 43) | | Originally Posted by AlHailThePowerOfJesusName Depending on where and when it hit.
pray tell, how would you go about missing a mountain sized object smacking into the planet?
work it out for yourself, and remember there are big craters all over the planet. http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/impacteffects/ Of course you know that all humans are the descendant of one woman. The molecular clock has shown us that. The Civilizations migrated after the tower of Babel, so yes it would include them.
some hundred and odd thousand years ago, the one man that all men are descended from lived several thousand years after her. was she a hemaphrodite for all that time or something? or perhaps you aren't understanding why we are all descended from one woman.
note also that all this means is that all our mitochondria originate in one woman. Other genes would come from completely different people, some of which may be much older, some may be much younger.
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30th April 2004, 03:44 PM
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Reps: 113 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by AlHailThePowerOfJesusName All civilizations? What about the Native americans of the Plains? They experienced no "agricultural trauama" or how about the African nations? Or desert nomads?
I can't believe you actually bothered to respond. At least you're persistent.
Yes, they are included. Rivers cut through the deserts and plains where they lived. Egypt is a very hot and desertous regions- yet they thrived there because of the Nile. Native Americans lived around the Great Lakes or different rivers, such as the Mississippi or the Ohio River. Or they lived near lakes. But no civilization simply lived in the middle of the Sahara.
Yes they did experience the trauma of violent precipitation and winds.
I don't even know why we're arguing this. I believe that the Genesis Flood happened too. I just don't believe that it occurred globally. Even if this point does get across, you're on my side on this point. You already know I have issues with your dating methods. After the tower of Babel humans migrated to different reigons.
What? Can you please elaborate to establish some sort of coherency between the two sentences? Source, Dr. Henry Morris, A Genesis Record.
Thank you for the source. Unfortunately I do not have that book. Would you mind providing a quote where Dr. Morris claims that all types of rock are uniform in all the geological ages?
I provided about ten objections to a worldwide flood. They don't go away if you ignore them. Bosh. Are you saying that God does not have the ability to create more water and take it away when he is done with it?
God has the ability to yes. But he did not. That is the problem. Can you demonstrate that God actually did that? We can demonstrate that either he did, or he's tricking everyone who studies geology into thinking that He didn't by covering His tracks. Why believe something extraordinary just to maintain a literal interpretation of the King James English interpreted in a 21st century time frame? I see it in my minds eye as God regrowing all the trees relatively fast. Remember the dove returned with an olive branch, So it seems that God preformed another miracle.
We're going to need more than your mind's eye. The trees would have to be partially submerged since they were still afloat. God created a flood- but not a supernatural one. A cactus partially submerged is a dead plant. I am sure you are going on and on but the problems you are coming up with are not intellecually honest. They could easily breath because the air pressure was far higher than it would be at that elevation. The water covered the mountains, so the air was pushed upward.
What on earth- the air pressure was less. Not more. It gets HARDER to breathe as you go up because there's less air because gravity is weaker there and air molecules are more sparse. That's why they take oxygen tanks when they ascend Mt. Everest. I'm not being intellectually honest? What?
That was one problem- I had several more. Please demonstrate how they are intellectually dishonest. | | |
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