Matthew 21:43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of GOD will be taken away from you

yaqovzadeek · #41 22nd March 2007, 05:31 AM

Originally Posted by peaceful soul

Would you care to tell me how Jesus was not the founder of Christianity? So, far, you have failed to explain it. You are trying to cite the fact that Jesus did not name Christiantiy, therefore, he did not found it. You are going by nomenclature rather than the declaration that Jesus gave to His Disciples to go out and preach the Gospel to all nations. That would make him the founder regardless of the name associated. If it were not for Jesus' proclamation, there would have been no spreading the Gospel--at least as we know it today. After all, it was upon Jesus' authority that the Gospel was compelled to be spread. The Gospel itself emanated from Jesus and was inspired by the Holy Spirit to be spread.

Jesus was the founder of the Jesus movement that was around at the time Jesus was on earth and carrying out his mission, he definitely was not the founder of modern day Christianity. He did not call it Christianity. His jesus movement was carried from Jerusalem not from Rome the church of Rome was a Pauline creation.
Overview:

The Christian religion is built around an itinerant Jewish preacher, Yeshua Ben Joseph or Yeshua of Nazareth. Later, Pauline Christians gave him the title Jesus Christ (Jesus was derived from Iesous, the Greek version of Yeshua; Christ means Messiah, the anointed one - a title often given to King of Israel). Roman Catholics, Evangelical Christians, many other Christians, and Muslims believe that his mother, Mary, was a virgin when he was conceived; her pregnancy was caused by the Holy Spirit, and did not result from human sexual intercourse.

The role of Saul/Paul:

Saul of Tarsus, a Greek Jew, had dedicated his life to persecuting the Nazoreans. On the road to Damascus, he had a personal vision, and believed that he had received instructions directly from Jesus to devote the rest of his life to spreading the gospel (good news) to the Gentiles. To recognize this event, he changed his name to Paul. He disappeared for three years and then returned to Palestine. There were many points of disagreement between Paul and the Jewish Christians. Paul believed that male converts should not have to be circumcised, or required to follow Jewish law. The Jewish Christians felt otherwise. They questioned Paul's claim to the be an apostle, since he had never met Jesus in real life. Compromises were reached: Paul concentrated on converting the Gentiles; the Nazoreans sought converts from within the Jewish communities. Due to Paul's message, his amazing oratory skills and organizing ability, he was able to build a network of Christian churches throughout the eastern Mediterranean. These eventually grew to cover almost all of the Western world. By the time that Jesus' original followers (now called Apostles) died, most of the Christians in the world were Gentiles. Until that time, the Apostles had been the ultimate authority in matters of belief. Individual congregations were headed by persons called variously episkopos (bishop or overseer), presbuteros (elder) or poimen (pastor or shepherd). Paul, Peter, and a number of other Apostles were executed by the Roman state on charges of stirring up civil revolt.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_hisb.htm
peace
yaqovzadeek
aka James the just

LittleLambofJesus · #42 22nd March 2007, 02:12 PM

Jesus was the founder of the Jesus movement that was around at the time Jesus was on earth and carrying out his mission,

Hi. Yes, that is what we are trying to explain to the Jews.

Y@sha`yah/Isaiah 61:1 "A Spirit of 'Adonay Y@hovih [is] upon Me, Because YHWH has anointed Me To preach good tidings to the poor; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of YHWH , And the day of vengeance of our 'Elohiym; To comfort all who mourn, 3 To appoint to mourners in Zion, To give to them beauty instead of ashes, The oil of joy instead of mourning, A covering of praise for a spirit of weakness, And He is calling to them, `Trees of righteousness, The planting of YHWH--to be beautified.'

Luke 4:18 A Spirit [of ] Lord/kuriou, is upon Me, because He/YHWH hath anointed Me--to tell glad tidings unto the destitute; He hath sent me forth,--To proclaim, to captives, a release, and, to the blind, a recovering of sight,--to send away the crushed, with a release;

Revelation 1:1 [a/an] From/Un-Covering/Veiling[ apo-kaluyiV] Yeshuwa` Mashiyach, whichgives to Him, the God/YHWH, to show to the bondservants of Him, whichis behooving to be becoming in swiftness.

Reve 1:18 and he who is living, and I did become dead, and, lo, I am living to the ages of the ages. Amen! and I have the keys of the hades and of the death

LittleLambofJesus · #43 14th April 2007, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by sunrise0 apparently, the Great nation belongs to Ishmael

will someone please tell us where is this nation?

Bump.........interesting topic......

glo1 · #44 14th April 2007, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by caller_to_truth

Jesus said:
Matthew 21:43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of GOD will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing fruits from it.Which nation is that may I ask
Peace

If you read the wider passage, you will see a clearer picture:

Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures:
" 'The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes'?

"Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.
He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."

When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus' parables, they knew he was talking about them. They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.
(Matthew21:42-46)

Jesus is saying that the kingdom of God (salvation) will be taken from those who refuse to follow him (i.e. the pharisees).
Whereas anybody who will hear him and follow him, will receive the kingdom. That means to this day anybody and everybody, regardless of colour, background and nationality - we all are invited to surrender to Christ and become his followers.

Jesus is the capstone, which he refers to.
He will either become the foundation of your faith, or he will trip you up and make you stumble ... the choice is yours.

As it happens, most of the early Christians were gentiles, only relatively few Jews believed Jesus and followed him.
Perhaps that's what Jesus is referring to here ...

Peace

glo

peaceful soul · #45 14th April 2007, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by peaceful soul

Would you care to tell me how Jesus was not the founder of Christianity? So, far, you have failed to explain it. You are trying to cite the fact that Jesus did not name Christiantiy, therefore, he did not found it. You are going by nomenclature rather than the declaration that Jesus gave to His Disciples to go out and preach the Gospel to all nations. That would make him the founder regardless of the name associated. If it were not for Jesus' proclamation, there would have been no spreading the Gospel--at least as we know it today. After all, it was upon Jesus' authority that the Gospel was compelled to be spread. The Gospel itself emanated from Jesus and was inspired by the Holy Spirit to be spread.

Originally Posted by yaqovzadeek

Jesus was the founder of the Jesus movement that was around at the time Jesus was on earth and carrying out his mission, he definitely was not the founder of modern day Christianity. He did not call it Christianity. His jesus movement was carried from Jerusalem not from Rome the church of Rome was a Pauline creation.
Overview:

The Christian religion is built around an itinerant Jewish preacher, Yeshua Ben Joseph or Yeshua of Nazareth. Later, Pauline Christians gave him the title Jesus Christ (Jesus was derived from Iesous, the Greek version of Yeshua; Christ means Messiah, the anointed one - a title often given to King of Israel). Roman Catholics, Evangelical Christians, many other Christians, and Muslims believe that his mother, Mary, was a virgin when he was conceived; her pregnancy was caused by the Holy Spirit, and did not result from human sexual intercourse.

The role of Saul/Paul:

Saul of Tarsus, a Greek Jew, had dedicated his life to persecuting the Nazoreans. On the road to Damascus, he had a personal vision, and believed that he had received instructions directly from Jesus to devote the rest of his life to spreading the gospel (good news) to the Gentiles. To recognize this event, he changed his name to Paul. He disappeared for three years and then returned to Palestine. There were many points of disagreement between Paul and the Jewish Christians. Paul believed that male converts should not have to be circumcised, or required to follow Jewish law. The Jewish Christians felt otherwise. They questioned Paul's claim to the be an apostle, since he had never met Jesus in real life. Compromises were reached: Paul concentrated on converting the Gentiles; the Nazoreans sought converts from within the Jewish communities. Due to Paul's message, his amazing oratory skills and organizing ability, he was able to build a network of Christian churches throughout the eastern Mediterranean. These eventually grew to cover almost all of the Western world. By the time that Jesus' original followers (now called Apostles) died, most of the Christians in the world were Gentiles. Until that time, the Apostles had been the ultimate authority in matters of belief. Individual congregations were headed by persons called variously episkopos (bishop or overseer), presbuteros (elder) or poimen (pastor or shepherd). Paul, Peter, and a number of other Apostles were executed by the Roman state on charges of stirring up civil revolt.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_hisb.htm
peace
yaqovzadeek
aka James the just

Exactly how does this relate to my post? In what way does in refute scripture? What I said is based on reading scripture.

Beanieboy · #46 14th April 2007, 03:23 PM

Why is this thread in the NonChrstian Forum?

glo1 · #47 14th April 2007, 05:17 PM

Because a non-Christian asked a question about a Bible passage.

I suppose strictly speaking it belongs in the 'Questions by Non-Christians' section.
I am sure the moderators will move it, if necessary ...

glo

LittleLambofJesus · #48 15th April 2007, 03:03 AM

Originally Posted by sunrise0 apparently, the Great nation belongs to Ishmael

will someone please tell us where is this nation [Matt 21:43]?

Originally Posted by Beanieboy

Why is this thread in the NonChrstian Forum?

Because Jews and Muslims and other non-CHRIST-ian religions want to ask about our Bible.

One other thing I want to bring up.

According to the Jews, if Jesus would have been the Messiah, He would have built the 3rd Temple.

That would be kind of awkward as the 2nd rebuilt one was still standing when Jesus came and they do not consider Him as their Messiah.

Matthew 24:1 And having gone forth, Jesus departed from the temple, and his disciples came near to show him the buildings of the temple,

http://www.aish.com/spirituality/phi..._In_Jesus$.asp

1) JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES
What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:
A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

yaqovzadeek · #49 15th April 2007, 04:04 AM

Originally Posted by peaceful soul

Originally Posted by peaceful soul
Would you care to tell me how Jesus was not the founder of Christianity? So, far, you have failed to explain it. You are trying to cite the fact that Jesus did not name Christiantiy, therefore, he did not found it. You are going by nomenclature rather than the declaration that Jesus gave to His Disciples to go out and preach the Gospel to all nations. That would make him the founder regardless of the name associated. If it were not for Jesus' proclamation, there would have been no spreading the Gospel--at least as we know it today. After all, it was upon Jesus' authority that the Gospel was compelled to be spread. The Gospel itself emanated from Jesus and was inspired by the Holy Spirit to be spread.

Exactly how does this relate to my post? In what way does in refute scripture? What I said is based on reading scripture.

You had request evidence that Jesus was not the founder of Christianity and that paul was, that is how it relates to your post.
Jesus never went around preaching Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and Pauls letter's that what makes him not the founder of the modern day Christianity.
he preached from the temple of Jerusalem, Paul Created the Church of Rome of which Paul and all modern day Christians take their beleif from.
Jesus came only for the Lost sheep of Israel mot gentiles. You and all the other Christians are not the lost sheep of Israel.
Peace
Yaqovzadeek
aka james the Just

peaceful soul · #50 15th April 2007, 04:49 AM

originally posted by yaqovzadeek

You had request evidence that Jesus was not the founder of Christianity and that paul was, that is how it relates to your post.
Jesus never went around preaching Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and Pauls letter's that what makes him not the founder of the modern day Christianity.

yaqovzadeek, please come back to earth. You are not making any sense. Do you understand what the Bible teaches? And what the great commission was? And who commissioned it? Jesus taught His Disciples and after He resurrected, He commissioned them to go and teach the message He brought forth through the guide of the Holy Spirit that He sent to guide them in all truth. Jesus personally sent them out to teach the world and told them what to teach. That definitely qualifies Him as the founder.

I am also wondering if you are trying to make some distinction when you say "modern day Christianity". The bottom line is that Biblical Christianity is nothing different than the way it always have been. Variations in Christianity should not be confused with what the Bible teaches.

he preached from the temple of Jerusalem, Paul Created the Church of Rome of which Paul and all modern day Christians take their beleif from.

Enough of your falsehoods. Paul did not have anything to do with establishing a church anywhere. What you find him doing is correcting churches that had gone astray from scriptural teachings.

Jesus came only for the Lost sheep of Israel mot gentiles. You and all the other Christians are not the lost sheep of Israel.
Peace
Yaqovzadeek
aka james the Just

Please continue citing selective verses to try to make Jesus a local prophet so that He can fit in with your Islamic theology. The full context of scripture shows Him giving charge to His Disciples to go out to the world--that is not a central strip of land known as Israel.