Picked up a book on Saturday by Paul L. King titled Moving Mountains.
King is a liscensed C&MA minister and a professor at ORU. He is also a critics of the WoF movement (though no where near as bad as Hanegraaf and others). In his book, he looks at some of the teachings of about twleve classic authors (George Mueller, J. Hudson Taylor, Charles Spurgeon, Phoebe Palmer, Hannah Whitall Smith, E. M. Bounds, Andrew Murray, A. B. Simpson, Oswald Chambers, Amy Carmichael, John A. MacMillan, and A. W. Tozer) and shows the astounding similarities of their teachings and today's current WoF teachings, and he also notes what he perceives to be differences.
For example, I did not know that C. H. Spurgeon could probably be considered one of the earliest proponents of "seed faith." For example, on page 62, King quotes Spurgeon as saying:
Faith's way of gaining is giving. I must try this again and again; and I may expect that as much of prosperity as will be good for me will come to me as a gracious reward for a liberal course of action.
His wife used to say, "Spend, and God will send."
Spurgeon believed that our prosperity was connected to our giving. Take note that King does try to make some distinctions between what Spurgeon taught and what he believes is being taught by some of today's proponents of prosperity.
Regardless of some my disagreements with King's conclusions, this is a very well put together book and very informative. It would make an excellent companion to Joe McIntyre's book, "E. W. Kenyon: The True Story." I would recommend my fellow WoFers purchasing this book to get even more info on how similar classic author's teaching on faith is to today's faith teaching (as well as some of the valid differences, few they may be).
By the way T7, I think you are a fan of Paul King's work. Have you read this book yet? If so, what do you think about it?
__________________ Let the Scriptures Determine Your Theology, Do Not Read Your Theology into Scripture.
Picked up a book on Saturday by Paul L. King titled Moving Mountains.
King is a liscensed C&MA minister and a professor at ORU. He is also a critics of the WoF movement (though no where near as bad as Hanegraaf and others). In his book, he looks at some of the teachings of about twleve classic authors (George Mueller, J. Hudson Taylor, Charles Spurgeon, Phoebe Palmer, Hannah Whitall Smith, E. M. Bounds, Andrew Murray, A. B. Simpson, Oswald Chambers, Amy Carmichael, John A. MacMillan, and A. W. Tozer) and shows the astounding similarities of their teachings and today's current WoF teachings, and he also notes what he perceives to be differences.
For example, I did not know that C. H. Spurgeon could probably be considered one of the earliest proponents of "seed faith." For example, on page 62, King quotes Spurgeon as saying:
Faith's way of gaining is giving. I must try this again and again; and I may expect that as much of prosperity as will be good for me will come to me as a gracious reward for a liberal course of action.
His wife used to say, "Spend, and God will send."
Spurgeon believed that our prosperity was connected to our giving. Take note that King does try to make some distinctions between what Spurgeon taught and what he believes is being taught by some of today's proponents of prosperity.
Regardless of some my disagreements with King's conclusions, this is a very well put together book and very informative. It would make an excellent companion to Joe McIntyre's book, "E. W. Kenyon: The True Story." I would recommend my fellow WoFers purchasing this book to get even more info on how similar classic author's teaching on faith is to today's faith teaching (as well as some of the valid differences, few they may be).
By the way T7, I think you are a fan of Paul King's work. Have you read this book yet? If so, what do you think about it?
I'm afraid I haven't, victoryword. I have just added it to my wishlist, though. (I'm having to exercise immense self-control with my book-buying habits, at the moment, since - please, please God! - I shall be moving shortly.)
It sounds interesting, though. As you know, I believe there is usually something valid in what the Word of Faith teachers are telling us - I just think they take it to an extreme. To put it technically, I believe they absolutise the relative and systemise the personal, producing a humanistic [man-cented] distortion* that gives us much too much control of the various outcomes. It bothers me, however, when people trample the principle of giving and receiving, positive/negative confession and financial prosperity, because of these excesses. There is usually something that can be salvaged simply by applying to the teaching a God-centred methodology that realigns each doctrinal emphasis away from its exaggeration of human responsibilty and back into the hands of God. But you've heard all that before. (BTW, on the subject of prosperity, we had an interesting discussion recently in the Charismatic Forum, which you may care to read -http://www.christianforums.com/t840059)
--- * The degree of humanism depends on the teacher.
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Theophilus7
"How precious to me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them!" (Ps. 139:17)
That point of view about giving is intresting because the worlds way to be prosperous is to hoard wealth.
As long as we refuse to isolate the principle from the whole, it does make sense. If we loses our lives, we will find them; if we look after the needs of others, our needs will also be taken care of. Christ was no Stoic. He did not preach self-denial as an end in itself. What He was trying to show us is that, when we get our eyes off ourselves and onto Him, when we stop worrying about the all-important self and start thinking about others, we get ourselves thrown in in the bargain! What God takes with his left hand He gives back with His right. What we submit to death we receive again in resurrection.
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Theophilus7
"How precious to me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them!" (Ps. 139:17)
As long as we refuse to isolate the principle from the whole, it does make sense. If we loses our lives, we will find them; if we look after the needs of others, our needs will also be taken care of. Christ was no Stoic. He did not preach self-denial as an end in itself. What He was trying to show us is that, when we get our eyes off ourselves and onto Him, when we stop worrying about the all-important self and start thinking about others, we get ourselves thrown in in the bargain! What God takes with his left hand He gives back with His right. What we submit to death we receive again in resurrection.
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1 Cor 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not in word but in power.
I'm afraid I haven't, victoryword. I have just added it to my wishlist, though.
Darn! I was hoping you had the book because I wanted to discuss it. I am already finding some errors in it and strong points in which I disagree with King. You, being closer to his theological position would have made a good proxy for him
__________________ Let the Scriptures Determine Your Theology, Do Not Read Your Theology into Scripture.
Darn! I was hoping you had the book because I wanted to discuss it. I am already finding some errors in it and strong points in which I disagree with King. You, being closer to his theological position would have made a good proxy for him
Ah, you tempt me. I am almost giving way... I have clicked on my shopping basket. I am lifting my finger to press the buy button.... But no! My folks will not thank me if I get another book just yet. (The whole Schaeffer set came on Saturday, and I was moaned at. And they do not know that more is on the way... heh heh ) I guess you'll have to shelve it for the moment and we shall come back to it, if you're still interested in a few weeks time.
Regarding King, the only thing I have read by him was "A believer with authority" - that, and his review of "The Word Faith controversy". Oh yes, add his article on Macmillan too on the Pneuma Foundation website. But that is all. His book on Macmillan was interesting - some striking similarities between the Hagin/Copeland theology (perhaps esp. Copeland) and Macmillan. Nevertheless, I am not big on "taking authority", I must confess. Unless it is united with the gifts of the Spirit (which are as the spirit wills), it stands to make Pentecost a non-event, in my opinion. (Now that would make an interesting discussion... )
T7
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Theophilus7
"How precious to me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them!" (Ps. 139:17)
Well, don't rush on my account. By the way, that book and a copy of Kenyon's "New Creation Realities" that I bought at the same time were the first books I have been able to purchase in some time. I have many more on my list to buy but since I am in school and money is going towards that, well ... you know how that goes.
__________________ Let the Scriptures Determine Your Theology, Do Not Read Your Theology into Scripture.
- I shall be moving shortly.)
But no! My folks will not thank me if I get another book just yet. (The whole Schaeffer set came on Saturday, and I was moaned at. And they do not know that more is on the way... heh heh 
) I guess you'll have to shelve it for the moment and we shall come back to it, if you're still interested in a few weeks time.
)
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