Divorce and adultery

thereselittleflower · #81 15th February 2004, 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by joshua_cheung

Consider the cases what had happenning in those days?

Case 1.
A husband divorced his wife just because he wanted another wife. ( It is not adultery for a man to have more than one wife in the time of Jesus).

Case 2.
A husband divorced his wife just because he doesn't like her. (for example, she could not help him to have a son or a daughter)

Consider the cases what had happenning Nowadays?

Case 1.
A wife divorced her husband because they had quarrelled all the time or her husband often beated her.

Case 2.
A wife divorced her husband because her husband commits adultery.
A husband divorced her wife because her husband didn't love her anymore. He didn't feel free. He didn't want to be bounded by the marriage.

Did his wife commit adultery if she would marry again? Do a singe man marry the divorced wife commit adultery?.

Hi Joshua

It sounds as though you are saying that whether or not a person commits adultery or not depends on the reason for the divorce . .

It is not the reason for the divorce that matters, except in the situation where there was fornication while espoused, before the marriage was consumated . . but since this is not the issue we face today, we can disregard this . .we don't give writs of divorce to our fiancees when we find out they were unfaithful before our wedding night . .

So, for all intents and purposes, the reason for the divorce is not the governing issue when it comes to remarriage . .

The governing issue is whether or not they were validly married and joined together by God in the first place . .

If they were, and they remarry, they commit adultery . .

The issue you raise about polygamy being common in Jesus' time and having bearing on the words of Jesus, that is something I have to take exception with . . my understanding is that polygamy was really only an issue among the aristocacy of the time, not the common people of Israel . .

Here is something you might find interesting:

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/polygame.html

I think the idea that Jesus was speaking to polygamy is not supported by the evidence, so His words did not have anything specific to do with whether or not one had another wife, as the vast majority of men woud be monogamous . . but if you have other evidence, please present it . .

I have to run . . but I will try to get back to your posts later tonight . .

Peace in Him!

joshua_cheung · #82 16th February 2004, 12:36 AM

Originally Posted by thereselittleflower

Hi Joshua

It sounds as though you are saying that whether or not a person commits adultery or not depends on the reason for the divorce . .

So, for all intents and purposes, the reason for the divorce is not the governing issue when it comes to remarriage . .

The governing issue is whether or not they were validly married and joined together by God in the first place . .

If they were, and they remarry, they commit adultery . .!

Yes, it depends on the reasons for the divorce. Actually, if there is a divorce, most likely there are sins.

Originally Posted by thereselittleflower

The issue you raise about polygamy being common in Jesus' time and having bearing on the words of Jesus, that is something I have to take exception with . . my understanding is that polygamy was really only an issue among the aristocacy of the time, not the common people of Israel . .

Here is something you might find interesting:

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/polygame.html

I think the idea that Jesus was speaking to polygamy is not supported by the evidence, so His words did not have anything specific to do with whether or not one had another wife, as the vast majority of men woud be monogamous . . but if you have other evidence, please present it . .

I have to run . . but I will try to get back to your posts later tonight . .

Peace in Him!

OK. Let me show you.

Kings David and Solomon had more than one wife. If it was adultery to have more than one wife , then David and Solomon committed adultery. Kings David committed adultery not because he had more than one wife . The reason is he had the wife of other man.

So this makes me think that it was not adultery to have more than one wife at the time of Jesus.

However, the early church after following the words of Jesus would consider any man who had more than one wife committed adultery.

thereselittleflower · #83 16th February 2004, 05:47 AM

Originally Posted by joshua_cheung

Yes, it depends on the reasons for the divorce. Actually, if there is a divorce, most likely there are sins.

OK. Let me show you.

Kings David and Solomon had more than one wife. If it was adultery to have more than one wife , then David and Solomon committed adultery. Kings David committed adultery not because he had more than one wife . The reason is he had the wife of other man.

So this makes me think that it was not adultery to have more than one wife at the time of Jesus.

However, the early church after following the words of Jesus would consider any man who had more than one wife committed adultery.

Hi Joshua

That is an interesting way of looking at it . . though, of course, many hundreds of years had transpired between the cultural practices of the Davidic Kingdom and the time of Jesus so that polygamy was not what it was at the time of David and Solomon . .

But even so,, the point you make pretty much is the same as the point I am making, that once married to one person in the eyes of God, to divorce and marry another would cause those involved in the remarriage to commit adultery, as the wife was still joined to her first husband in the eyes of God . .
Given that the vast majority at the time of Jesus were monogamus, it seems to me that the issue of polygamy in a few elite circles doesn't really have much impact or bearing on the words of Jesus . .

Peace in Him!

thereselittleflower · #84 16th February 2004, 06:01 AM

Originally Posted by aanjt

This almost sounds like my grandmother. She married a man, he was an alcoholic (and from what I can guess, she was abused in the marriage). They had a daughter together. She divorced him (not a very admirable thing back in the 30's). Years later, she met another man, my grandfather. She never revealed that she had ever been married before. He always assumed that her daughter was her baby sister (my grandmother is the 13th child in her family, so with so many siblings, I can see how he could think this). They got engaged. The day before the wedding, she finally fessed up. He had a choice. Marry my grandmother and be excommunicated from the RCC, or not marry her. Well, since he is my grandfather, you can guess that he married her. He has never taken communion since and they had their 60th anniversary last year. My grandmother is Methodist, so she did not face excommunication from the church. As to why she kept it from him, I don't know. Maybe knowing that he was RC, she was afraid. Her fears were well grounded, for if he had known from the get-go that she was a divorced woman, he would have left and never given her a 2nd thought.

Yours in Christ,
Jen

hi Jen

Yes, he did make a very significant choice . . but did he tell you that if he had known from the beginning that she was divorced, that it would have been the death of their relationship?

Just going by what you shared, it sounds like he felt forced into making a last minute decision to marry her the next day or cancel the wedding, and of course we know what he choose . . but it leaves me wondering if they ever tried to pursue an annulment of her previous marriage?

Did they get married in the Catholic Church or in the Methodist Church (or somewhere else?) . . .

There are reasons that can make a previous marriage invalid . .and so not joined in the eyes of God, and so his marriage to your grandmother would have been not a problem at all . . such as, if one member lies when taking their marriage vows - makes them, but does not intend to keep them . . that would invalidate the marriage, for how can you have a convenant when one has lied? Did they ever investigate the previous marriage through the Catholic Church?

I know you probably did not bring this up to really explore the issues it raises, but I wonder if her previous husband still alive now? If he is deceased, I hope your grandfather will at least explore getting everything squared with the Church so he can take communion again . . it sounds as though he understands the potential seriousness of his choice and has refrained from communion because of it . . Communion is very important to Catholics . . and that he honors it by not partaking in it due to possibly being in a marriage relationship that may not be recognized by the Church to be valid, says a lot for your Grandfather . .

Anyway, just some thoughts I had . . .

Peace in Him!

wayfaring man · #85 16th February 2004, 04:06 PM

With the high divorce rate among us ( along with many other contradictions of unrighteousness ) , I'd say Satan is having a field day in making Christianity appear as an ineffecual religion ; full of hypocrisies .

"...What is your life ? It is even a vapour , that appeareth for a little time , and then vanisheth away ." <-----> James 4:14

"...The time is short : it remaineth , that both they that have wives be as though they had none ; And they that weep , as though they wept not ; and they that rejoice , as though they rejoiced not ; and they that buy , as though they possessed not ." <-----> 1st Corinthians 7:29+30

" See then that ye walk circumspectly , not as fools , but as wise , Redeeming the time , because the days are evil . Wherefore be ye not unwise , but understanding what the will of the Lord is ..." <-----> Ephesians 5:15-17

"...All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men : but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men .... neither in this world , neither in the world to come . Either make the tree good , and his fruit good ; or else make the tree corrupt , and his fruit corrupt : for the tree is known by his fruit ." <-----> Matthew 12:31-33

When anyone in whom the Holy Ghost resides , does repeatedly disobey what is clearly God's will for us , the grief of the Spirirt steadily intensifies , and the conflict within us will begin to rage ; and so heated will this warfare become , that inevitably , we will blasphemy the Spirit of Truth right out of our life , to be forever lost , except we repent , before the conflict reaches that seething boiling point . Those who can continue in blatant disobedience to The Commandments of Christ ,for any considerable length of time , without becoming beside themself with inner turmoil and chastisements a
plenty , are as such , those who are yet separated from God's Spirit . ( See Jude 17-19 & Romans 8:5-9 ).

Sometimes , it takes the destruction of our flesh , to convince us to forsake sin . ( See 1st Corinthians 5:1-6 )

And as such , the very best we could hope for , is to be the least , in God's Kingdom . (See Matthew 5:17-20 )

Yet , we are counselled to "run " to win , not just to race ! ( See 1st Corinthians 9:24 )

And sometimes , people are tormented to the point of " seeking death " over life , and yet will still refuse to repent of their idolatry and offences against both God and humanity . ( See Revelation Chapter 9 ) .

Is the pleasure of sin for a very short season , worth jeopardizing our eternity with Christ in His Blessed Kingdom , I think not !

Stick to the sound words Jesus and His Apostles spoke regarding God's will concerning marriage & human sexuality , and let the Peace of God , which passes all understanding (See Philippians 4:7 ) preserve us innocent in this most commonly violated area of weakness of flesh and wantonness of mind .

And may our Precious Lord be Glorified in and by and through us all ! Amen .

sincerely , wm

aanjt · #86 16th February 2004, 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by thereselittleflower

hi Jen

Yes, he did make a very significant choice . . but did he tell you that if he had known from the beginning that she was divorced, that it would have been the death of their relationship?

Just going by what you shared, it sounds like he felt forced into making a last minute decision to marry her the next day or cancel the wedding, and of course we know what he choose . . but it leaves me wondering if they ever tried to pursue an annulment of her previous marriage?

Did they get married in the Catholic Church or in the Methodist Church (or somewhere else?) . . .

There are reasons that can make a previous marriage invalid . .and so not joined in the eyes of God, and so his marriage to your grandmother would have been not a problem at all . . such as, if one member lies when taking their marriage vows - makes them, but does not intend to keep them . . that would invalidate the marriage, for how can you have a convenant when one has lied? Did they ever investigate the previous marriage through the Catholic Church?

I know you probably did not bring this up to really explore the issues it raises, but I wonder if her previous husband still alive now? If he is deceased, I hope your grandfather will at least explore getting everything squared with the Church so he can take communion again . . it sounds as though he understands the potential seriousness of his choice and has refrained from communion because of it . . Communion is very important to Catholics . . and that he honors it by not partaking in it due to possibly being in a marriage relationship that may not be recognized by the Church to be valid, says a lot for your Grandfather . .

Anyway, just some thoughts I had . . .

Peace in Him!

I never knew her 1st husband, but since my grandmother is 91, I'm sure that he isn't still living. I am equally sure that they married in the Methodist church, considering that especially in the 30's the RCC would not have considered marrying someone who was not a RC and for my grandfather, him marrying a divorced woman. Since my grandmother is Methodist (and at the time Methodist), there would be no reason for her to seek anullment. My grandfather is in hospice, so I don't see the possibility for that and considering he has darken the doors of a church (besides weddings, funerals and children's baptisms), he does not have a church home in the RCC. Sorry, my enter key isn't working again. Thanks for the comment at the end, it really does mean a lot. He loves her a lot and loved her a lot back then. He knew that if he married my grandmother he would no longer be allowed to take the Holy Eucharist. What is really sad, though, that not taking communion in 60 years or more, and maybe due to his age (and he may have Alztheimer's), he does not even remember what it is

My father, a Methodist minister, has asked my grandfather (my mother's father, this is) if he would like communion, he told my father he really did not know what he was talking about. I don't know if he said that because he really doesn't know or if he said that because of holding and respecting the RCC beliefs and traditions regarding this. My grandmother never saw her ex-husband again after the divorce. My aunt only knows my grandfather (her step-father) as her father. She knows this is her step-father, though. My grandfather has been through a lot. When his only brother died in 1999, he was not physically or medically capable of going to his funeral (we live in Texas, the funeral was in Florida). Only did we find out later that not one person attended his funeral. My mother, who was very close to her uncle, was filled with deep regret and devastion. My mother has seizures, stroke in the past and has MS. Besides that, at the time my parents could not afford to go to the funeral. So, now, not having a sibling left, and not being able to live with his wife (my grandmother), well, he's been through a lot. I really doubt that my grandmother's first husband is still alive, though. Yours in Christ, Jen

Heartman · #87 17th February 2004, 09:53 PM

We must not judge the Word of God, it will judge us. God's Word will judge our choices and experiences, not the other way around. When God says no, He means No!

Heartman

Heartman · #88 19th February 2004, 10:33 PM

When it comes to enforcing the marriage standards in His Word, we already know what He is going to do. The only relevant question is: "What will you do?"