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  #11  
Old 28th September 2004, 03:34 PM
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How odd, you forgot to mention a few things. Let me....

Firstly, I believe Israel is the only state in existense that has violated every article of the Geneva convention.

Hardly a day goes by without the Israelis killing innocent Palestinian men, women, and children. Somehow Israel cannot commit any type of crime, so long as it is done by Israel it's automatically justified.

A link for you, it contains news reports detaling hundreds of Israeli atrocities........ http://www.nogw.com/israeliatrocities.html

Also, look at the history of U.N. resolutions against Israel.

I will say more later.....
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  #12  
Old 28th September 2004, 05:09 PM
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I personally would definately include Israel in my Axis of Evil.

Originally Posted by Koba The Dread
How odd, you forgot to mention a few things. Let me....

Firstly, I believe Israel is the only state in existense that has violated every article of the Geneva convention.

Hardly a day goes by without the Israelis killing innocent Palestinian men, women, and children. Somehow Israel cannot commit any type of crime, so long as it is done by Israel it's automatically justified.

A link for you, it contains news reports detaling hundreds of Israeli atrocities........ http://www.nogw.com/israeliatrocities.html

Also, look at the history of U.N. resolutions against Israel.

I will say more later.....
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Pray for Peace in the Middle-East.
  #13  
Old 28th September 2004, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ACougar
I personally would definately include Israel in my Axis of Evil.
I'll second that.
The more I learn about Israel, the more sickened and ashamed I become... Zionists are a disgrace to mankind and shame us all. And the fact we let them get away with it shames us all. They never miss an opportunity to remind us the injustice that the Jewish race has faced over the years, all the while committing despicable crimes against a minority who's identity they refuse to even acknowledge. Committing ethic cleansing while claiming to be the victims with carefully crafted lies. It just doesn't get any lower than this.

You have to wonder what the Palestinians could have achieved with the same level of aid, investment, guaranteed loans, preferential deals and tariff free trade? and of course if the Zionists hadn't stolen their land..

It's estimated that Israel has cost America between $1.6 and $3 trillion, what did they do to deserve that? Monk's list just goes to show that crime pays. Until justice is done, there will never be peace in the middle east.
  #14  
Old 29th September 2004, 09:37 AM
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According to the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise (AICE), from 1949-2001 the U.S. has given Israel a total of $94,966,300,000.

http://www.sustaincampaign.org/about_usaidtoisrael.html
STOP US TAX_FUNDED AID TO ISRAEL NOW



The following article provides a short introduction to the issues involved in the U.S. Relationship with Israel and the Occupied Territories.

U.S. Aid - Lifeblood of the Occupation,


by Matt Bowles (SUSTAIN)
Israel has maintained an illegal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip (Palestinian territories) for 35 years, entrenching an apartheid regime that looks remarkably like the former South African regime Palestinians into small, noncontiguous bantustans, imposing closures and curfews to control where they go and when, while maintaining control over the natural resources, exploiting Palestinian labor, and prohibiting indigenous economic development.




The Israeli military (IDF) --the third or forth most powerful army in the world-- routinely uses tanks, Apache helicopter gunships, and F-16 fighter jets (all subsidized by the U.S.) against a population that has no military and none of the protective institutions of a modern state.

All of this, Israel tells its citizens and the international community, is for "Israeli security." The reality, not surprisingly, is that these policies have resulted in a drastic increase in attacks on Israel. These attacks are then used as a pretext for further Israeli incursions into Palestinian areas and more violations of Palestinian human rights which makes Israeli civilians more secure; all of which further entrenches Israel¹s colonial apartheid regime. Most Americans do not realize the extent to which this is all funded by U.S. aid, nor do they understand the specific economic relationship the U.S. has with Israel and how that differs from other countries.

The Aid Pipeline

There are at least three ways in which aid to Israel is different from that of any other country. First, since 1982, U.S. aid to Israel has been transferred in one lump sum at the beginning of each fiscal year, which immediately begins to collect interest in U.S. banks. Aid that goes to other countries is disbursed throughout the year in quarterly installments.

Second, Israel is not required to account for specific purchases. Most countries receive aid for very specific purposes and must account for how it is spent. Israel is allowed to place US aid into its general fund, effectively eliminating any distinctions between types of aid. Therefore, U.S. tax-payers are helping to fund an illegal occupation, the expansion of colonial-settlement projects, and gross human rights violations against the Palestinian civilian population.

A third difference is the sheer amount of aid the U.S. gives to Israel, unparalleled in the history of U.S. foreign policy. Israel usually receives roughly one third of the entire foreign aid budget, despite the fact that Israel comprises less than .001 of the world¹s population and already has one of the world's higher per capita incomes. In other words, Israel, a country of approximately 6 million people, is currently receiving more U.S. aid than all of Africa, Latin America and the Caribbean combined when you take out Egypt and Colombia.

This year, the U.S. Congress approved $2.76 billion in its annual aid package for Israel. The total amount of direct U.S. aid to Israel has been constant, at around $3 billion (usually 60% military and 40% economic) per year for the last quarter century. A new plan was recently implemented to phase out all economic aid and provide corresponding increases in military aid by 2008. This year Israel is receiving $2.04 billion in military aid and $720 million in economic aid there is only military aid.

In addition to nearly $3 billion in direct aid, Israel usually gets another $3 billion or so in indirect aid: military support from the defense budget, forgiven loans, and special grants. While some of the indirect aid is difficult to measure precisely, it is safe to say that Israel¹s total aid (direct and indirect) amounts to at least five billion dollars annually.

On top of all of this aid, a team from Israel¹s finance ministry is slated to meet with U.S. government officials this month about an additional $800 million aid package which the Clinton administration promised Israel (and the Bush administration later froze) as compensation for the costs of its withdrawal from Lebanon. The U.S. also managed to find another $28 million in the 2001 Pentagon budget to give Israel to purchase "counter terrorism equipment."

According to the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise (AICE), from 1949-2001 the U.S. has given Israel a total of $94,966,300,000. The direct and indirect aid from this year should put the total U.S. aid to Israel since 1949 at over one hundred billion dollars. What is not widely known, however, is that most of this aid violates American laws. The Arms Export Control Act stipulates that US-supplied weapons be used only for "legitimate self-defense."

Moreover, the U.S. Foreign Assistance Act prohibits military assistance to any country "which engages in a consistent pattern of gross violations of internationally recognized human rights." The Proxmire amendment bans military assistance to any government that refuses to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and to allow inspection of its nuclear facilities, which Israel refuses to do. To understand why the U.S. spends this much money funding the brutal repression of a colonized people, it is necessary to examine the benefits for weapons manufacturers and, particularly, the role that Israel plays in the expansion and maintenance of U.S. imperialism.

A Very Special Relationship

In the fall of 1993, when many were supporting what they hoped would become a viable peace process, 78 senators wrote to former President Bill Clinton insisting that aid to Israel remain at current levels. Their reasons were the "massive procurement of sophisticated arms by Arab states." Yet the letter neglected to mention that 80% percent of those arms to Arab countries came from the U.S. itself.

Stephen Zunes has argued that the Aerospace Industry Association (AIA), which promotes these massive arms shipments, is even more influential in determining U.S. policy towards Israel than the notorious AIPAC (American Israel Public Affairs Committee) lobby. AIA has given two times more money to campaigns than all of the pro-Israel groups combined. Zunes asserts that the general thrust of U.S. policy would be pretty much the same even if AIPAC didn't exist: "We didn't need a pro-Indonesia lobby to support Indonesia in its savage repression of East Timor all these years."

The "special relationship" between the U.S. and Israel must be understood within the overall American imperialist project and the quest for global hegemony, beginning in the late 1960s and early 1970s. For example, 99% of all U.S. aid to Israel came after 1967, despite the fact that Israel was relatively more vulnerable in earlier years (from 1948-1967). Not coincidentally, it was in 1967 that Israel won the Six Day War against several Arab countries, establishing itself as a regional superpower. Also, in the late 1960s and particularly in the early 1970s (this was around the time of the Nixon Doctrine), the U.S. was looking to establish "spheres of influence"-regional superpowers in each significant area of the world to help the U.S. police them.

The primary U.S. interest in the Middle East is, and has always been, to maintain control of the oil in the region, primarily because this is the source of energy that supplies the industrial economies of Europe and Japan. The U.S. goal has been to insure that there is no indigenous threat to their domination of these energy resources. In the late 1960s and early 1970s, the U.S. made the strategic decision to ally itself with Israel and Iran, which were referred to as "our two eyes in the middle east" and the "guardians of the gulf." It was at this point that aid increased drastically, from $24 million in 1967 (before the war), to $634 million in 1971, to a staggering $2.6 billion in 1974, where it has remained relatively consistent ever since.

Israel was to be a military stronghold, a client state, and a proxy army, protecting U.S. interests in the Middle East and throughout the world. Subsidized by the CIA, Israel served U.S. interests well beyond the immediate region, setting up dependable client regimes (usually military-based dictatorships) to control local societies. Noam Chomsky has documented this extensively: Israel was the main force that established the Mobutu dictatorship in Zaire, for example. They also supported Idi Amin in Uganda, early on, as well as Haile Selasse in Ethopia, and Emperor Bokassa in the Central African Republic.

Israel became especially useful when the U.S. came under popular human rights pressure in the 1970s to stop supporting death squads and dictatorships in Latin America. The U.S. began to use Israel as a surrogate to continue its support. Chomsky documents how Israel established close relations with the neo-Nazi and military regimes of Argentina and Chile. Israel also supported genocidal attacks on the indigenous population of Guatemala, and sent arms to El Salvador and Honduras to support the contras. This was all a secondary role, however.

The primary role for Israel was to be the Sparta of the Middle East. During the Cold War, the U.S. especially needed Israel as a proxy army because direct intervention in the region was too dangerous, as the Soviets were allied with neighboring states. Over the last thirty years, the U.S. has pursued a two-track approach to dominating the region and its resources: It has turned Israel into a military outpost (now probably the most militarized society in the world) that is economically dependent on the U.S. while propping up corrupt Arab dictatorships such as those in Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia. These regimes are afraid of their own people and, thus, are very insecure. Therefore, they are inclined to collaborate with the U.S. at any cost.

Prospects for Activism

Since the end of the Cold War, the nuclear threat associated with direct intervention in the Middle East has disappeared and the U.S. has started a gradual and direct militarization of the region. This began with the Gulf War—putting U.S. military bases in Saudi Arabia (the primary source of oil), among other places—and has continued through the current ‘war on terrorism.’
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  #15  
Old 29th September 2004, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Koba The Dread
How odd, you forgot to mention a few things. Let me....

Firstly, I believe Israel is the only state in existense that has violated every article of the Geneva convention.

Hardly a day goes by without the Israelis killing innocent Palestinian men, women, and children. Somehow Israel cannot commit any type of crime, so long as it is done by Israel it's automatically justified.

A link for you, it contains news reports detaling hundreds of Israeli atrocities........ http://www.nogw.com/israeliatrocities.html

Also, look at the history of U.N. resolutions against Israel.

I will say more later.....
Israel has a lot to answer for, no doubt. One thing though, when a person has a pic of STALIN as their avatar, any condemnations that they make on behalf of humanity tend to ring pretty hollow.
  #16  
Old 29th September 2004, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Holy Warrior Monk
<insert OP here>
Holy Warrior Monk, do you realise how hypocritical your OP is to your libertarianism?

You despise welfare and anything that smacks of socialism. You hate taxes and see tax as theft. I won't get into the Palestine/Israel debate here, because it's not relevant to the point I want to make, but you do realise that Israel is a capitalist country that has a very strong socialist bent, don't you? They also still get a considerable amount of money from Germany, and an enormous amount of money from the US. I'm amazed that you don't see this as welfare, and condemn it. Israelis pay quite a bit in tax themselves to support their socialist infrastructure, draw welfare from other nations, and give out a lot in social welfare to Israelis. And as far as I know, some agriculture and industry is assisted through subsidies and tarrifs. Yet here you are, Mr. Libertarian, trumpeting Israel as a great country with an educated population an' all, and yet it's based on an economic and social system you despise. Weird.
  #17  
Old 29th September 2004, 11:03 AM
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I think some people would support Israel even if an IDF bulldozer was taking out thier home because a relative was accused of commiting a terrorist act. They would support Israel even if they lost a child to a "stray" IDF bullet. They would support Israel even if lying on the side of the road bleeding, the IDF wouldn't allow an ambulance to get to them and carry them to a Hospital. Thier religious zelotry prevents them from doing anything despite supporting Israel.

Originally Posted by lunachick
Holy Warrior Monk, do you realise how hypocritical your OP is to your libertarianism?

You despise welfare and anything that smacks of socialism. You hate taxes and see tax as theft. I won't get into the Palestine/Israel debate here, because it's not relevant to the point I want to make, but you do realise that Israel is a capitalist country that has a very strong socialist bent, don't you? They also still get a considerable amount of money from Germany, and an enormous amount of money from the US. I'm amazed that you don't see this as welfare, and condemn it. Israelis pay quite a bit in tax themselves to support their socialist infrastructure, draw welfare from other nations, and give out a lot in social welfare to Israelis. And as far as I know, some agriculture and industry is assisted through subsidies and tarrifs. Yet here you are, Mr. Libertarian, trumpeting Israel as a great country with an educated population an' all, and yet it's based on an economic and social system you despise. Weird.
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Pray for Peace in the Middle-East.
  #18  
Old 29th September 2004, 11:37 AM
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Israel has managed to violate or plainly ignore more UN resolutions then any other country.

Israel has a human rights recoprd equal to that of Saudi Arabia.

Israelis's know that the prophesies Christian Zionists quote are often about in case they stop being sent lots of money.

It's about money. Israel is a rich country and Arafat's palaces didn't fall out of the sky. Both sides have people making money out of misery.
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  #19  
Old 29th September 2004, 02:39 PM
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Iv'e been an activist for quite a number of years now and so I know... that 5 years ago, anybody exprssing an anti-zionist or pro-Palestinian opinion would have been spat on and stompted on in most forums on the internet (let alone once full of christian Americans).
The fact that there has been so many people expressing negative veiws of Israel can only be described as 'progress'. It's not much, but it's a start... there may be hope for the world yet!
  #20  
Old 29th September 2004, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ShadowAspect
Iv'e been an activist for quite a number of years now and so I know... that 5 years ago, anybody exprssing an anti-zionist or pro-Palestinian opinion would have been spat on and stompted on in most forums on the internet (let alone once full of christian Americans).
The fact that there has been so many people expressing negative veiws of Israel can only be described as 'progress'. It's not much, but it's a start... there may be hope for the world yet!
Negative views of Zionism, rather than Israel. Genuine Israeli/Palestinian cooperation still remains the best option for everyone. That this requires Israel in many ways to go back to before much they have created as facts on the ground since 1947: will be very hard fro all; and to hard for some.
Reconciliation that sees some kind of bicameral, twin-culture, federated one state, federated two state resolution: is the prize for overcoming Zionism's blind intransigence.
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