Evolution is written in our genes.

Phred · #1 4th February 2004, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by Chicago Tribune

So far, Yale scientists have discovered about 10,000 dead genes--genes from long-distant relatives that pushed evolution forward but died off when they outlived their usefulness. They are still hanging around our genome, silent sentinels of a glorious past that extends millions of years back in time.

An article appeared in the Sunday Chicago Tribune on Feb. 1. Quite a good read about the genetics that supports evolution. This one line stuck out... why in the world would a designer create a species with all this superfluous information? If designed, we should have perfectly clean genomes.

Anyway, check here. It's a good read, aimed at the layman.

shenzhou · #2 4th February 2004, 02:50 PM

If you want the techical article i think this is the one:

Millions of years of evolution preserved: a comprehensive catalog of the processed pseudogenes in the human genome. Z Zhang, PM Harrison, Y Liu, M Gerstein (2003) Genome Res 13: 2541-58. http://bioinfo.mbb.yale.edu/e-print/...gr2003/all.pdf

more pseudogene publications: http://bioinfo.mbb.yale.edu/papers/

Nathan David · #3 4th February 2004, 02:52 PM

Personally I think that's a bad argument to use, because it could turn out that the useless information is, in fact, used for something we don't understand yet. IMHO the "badly designed" arguments aren't very effective. It's far more intellectually honest to demonstrate how it could get that way without a designer. Rather than try to refute a designer, just show why one isn't necessary.

Phred · #4 4th February 2004, 03:00 PM

I'm not so sure. Have any of those sequences been proven to be for something other in another creature? While you're correct, the lack of necessity is the more honest argument if we don't know about those sequences... if we do then it's a different story.

Jet Black · #5 4th February 2004, 03:05 PM

well there are some like the crippled Vitamin C gene that are useful in other creatures. There are also a number of other artefacts such as transposons, ERVs and things like that, which are not coding, and do not relate to anything else.

napajohn · #6 4th February 2004, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Phred

An article appeared in the Sunday Chicago Tribune on Feb. 1. Quite a good read about the genetics that supports evolution. This one line stuck out... why in the world would a designer create a species with all this superfluous information? If designed, we should have perfectly clean genomes.

Anyway, check here. It's a good read, aimed at the layman.

how does one determine if that information is superfluos?..we have just recently completed the human genome project..this is catalogueing it and identifying it..what basis can one say that that information is considered "junk" and another having added value...This idea seems to parallel the old vestigal theories that abound way before electron microscopy was invented..that tonsils and the appendix and other vestigal organs have lost its value and the removal of such would have no or little impact to the individual..back in the 60's and 70's tonsilectomy was performed on demand..today medicine is realizing that the best scenario is to not remove
unless its hindrance outweighs the benefits...
heres a quote from an article i scanned:
" In a detailed medical supplement, Drs. Maeda and Mogi wrote that the tonsil functions both in antibody production and cell-mediated immunity. [Maeda] Other contributors to this supplement said that the tonsil is important as a lymphoid organ in the upper respiratory tract. In the introductory remarks to this supplement, Dr. Kataura said that numerous modern immunological studies show that the palatine tonsil is an immunological organ and acts as defense mechanism against the infection of the upper respiratory tract.
Bergman and Howe say that doctors are now reluctant to remove the tonsils or the adenoids. They cite studies, which showed there was no decrease in the number of colds, sore throats, and other respiratory infections between children who had them removed, and those who did not. Other studies they cited indicated that people who have had tonsillectomies may have a significant increase in strep throat and are nearly three times as likely to develop Hodgkin's disease. They say that the tonsils help the immune system to develop."..so lets hold off before we start calling some DNA superfluos and another having value.

Phred · #7 4th February 2004, 03:35 PM

As if on Command Nathan... good call.

aziel92 · #8 4th February 2004, 03:44 PM

Also, what they are finding increasingly is that DNA that doesnt necessarily code for anything is vital for heterochromtin structure (chromatin in non dividing cells) It helps the unpackaged DNA make a specific structure so that certain genes are present for expression while others are "hidden" so to speak w/i the chromatin. This is very indicative of a creator who not only made genes functional but also lined them up so in certain orders with noncoding DNA so that they could be regulated. Also many of these "left over" genes are probably left over viral DNA that has been mutated enough so its no longer functional but does not interfer with other genes and the 3D structure.

pureone · #9 4th February 2004, 05:35 PM

If those genes are for later, then the mutations that are in those genes would render them "useless" at a later date. I mean that the mutations would change the gene and the final product would be nothing like what was first written down...

pureone · #10 4th February 2004, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by napajohn

how does one determine if that information is superfluos?

by testing to see which part of a genome are actually used. mRNA is used to see which genes or sequences are being used. The introns are extra, or no-coding, but they do serve a purpose: being bases which can mutate, allowing for a lesser chance that a mutation will fall into a coding region.

Originally Posted by napa

..we have just recently completed the human genome project..this is catalogueing it and identifying it.

right. and they see which DNA is non-coding or extra.

Originally Posted by napa

.what basis can one say that that information is considered "junk" and another having added value

By whether it codes or not. As mentioned, junk DNA serves a purpose. It is not being saved for later by design. If a sequence were designed to be used a long time from now, the mutations would completely destroy this non-used DNA and change it into something else that codes for something else. Hmm, sounds like evolution... .[quote=napa].This idea seems to parallel the old vestigal theories that abound way before electron microscopy was invented..that tonsils and the appendix and other vestigal organs have lost its value and the removal of such would have no or little impact to the individual..back in the 60's and 70's tonsilectomy was performed on demand..today medicine is realizing that the best scenario is to not remove
unless its hindrance outweighs the benefits...[quote] This has nothing to do with non-coding sequences of DNA, and in fact is the opposite.The extra DNA is there to be hurt, changed and mutated and never removed. Removal of non-coding DNA would increase the mutation rate in coding DNA allowing for non-beneficial side effects for the most part because the total number of mutations would be very high. Would you like an inflamed appendix or tonsils and never have them removed?

Originally Posted by napa

heres a quote from an article i scanned:
" In a detailed medical supplement, Drs. Maeda and Mogi wrote that the tonsil functions both in antibody production and cell-mediated immunity. [Maeda] Other contributors to this supplement said that the tonsil is important as a lymphoid organ in the upper respiratory tract. In the introductory remarks to this supplement, Dr. Kataura said that numerous modern immunological studies show that the palatine tonsil is an immunological organ and acts as defense mechanism against the infection of the upper respiratory tract.
Bergman and Howe say that doctors are now reluctant to remove the tonsils or the adenoids. They cite studies, which showed there was no decrease in the number of colds, sore throats, and other respiratory infections between children who had them removed, and those who did not. Other studies they cited indicated that people who have had tonsillectomies may have a significant increase in strep throat and are nearly three times as likely to develop Hodgkin's disease. They say that the tonsils help the immune system to develop."..so lets hold off before we start calling some DNA superfluos and another having value.

No-we can say that some is coding and having an active role in cellular activity, and some is non-coding, which means it has a passive role in absorbing mutations, and may someday (although rarely/never the original role it had) have another role.