Just an enquiry for those who know a bit of Biblical Greek, or have the tools to look up Greek Phrases.
WRT the Phrase the "Holy Place" of Matt 24:15.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
It seems to me, from my own enquiries, that the combination of those two particular Greek words "holy" αγιω and "Place" τοπω only occur on two other occasions in the NT, in Acts 6:13 and Acts 21:28.
Is this correct?
BTW can anyone recommend a Good Greek Lexicon for phases like this?
U
Last edited by Uzziah; 19th September 2004 at 05:33 AM.
Just an enquiry for those who know a bit of Biblical Greek, or have the tools to look up Greek Phrases.
WRT the Phrase the "Holy Place" of Matt 24:15.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
It seems to me, from my own enquiries, that the combination of those two particular Greek words "holy" a??? and "Place" t?p? only occur on two other occasions in the NT, in Acts 6:13 and Acts 21:28.
Is this correct?
BTW can anyone recommend a Good Greek Lexicon for phases like this?
U
I believe you are correct. Are you trying to figure out what the abomination of desolation is? Personally, I think it is that the temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem, then the 'pope' (not necessarily the current one) will somehow take possession of it and sit in it proclaiming himself to be God. The current 'pope' is attempting to buddy up to both the Jews and the Muslims by essentially declaring them to be saved without faith in Jesus and is the first 'pope' to have visited Jerusalem in a LONG time. It's all a political ploy to take possession of the temple whenever it is built.
Just an enquiry for those who know a bit of Biblical Greek, or have the tools to look up Greek Phrases.
WRT the Phrase the "Holy Place" of Matt 24:15.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
It seems to me, from my own enquiries, that the combination of those two particular Greek words "holy" ???? and "Place" ???? only occur on two other occasions in the NT, in Acts 6:13 and Acts 21:28.
Is this correct?
Well, sort of. In Matt 24:15 the phrase is used without the definite article in Greek:
TOPW hAGIW (dative case because of the preposition EN) ("place holy")
In Acts 6:13, the definite article is used twice:
TOU TOPOU TOU hAGIOU ("the place the holy"), common Greek construction for emphasis.
And in Acts 21:28 there are two phrases, not identical:
TOU TOPOU TOUTOU (genitive case "the place this") - in parallel to TOU LAOU (people) and TOU NOMOU (Law)
and the second time at the end of the verse with one definite article used with the additional demonstrative word "this"
TON hAGION TOPON TOUTOUN (accusative case because of the verb) ("the holy place this") - different word order.
BTW can anyone recommend a Good Greek Lexicon for phases like this?
U
The best is Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich but it runs $125. There is an abbreviated form (called the (Shorter...") that runs about $30 (US).
But for this kind of work an exhaustive concordance is a better tool. Or if you have a computer bible program that allows you to search in the original languages (Accordance on the Mac, Logos on Windows, and there are a few others).
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Well, sort of. In Matt 24:15 the phrase is used without the definite article in Greek:
TOPW hAGIW (dative case because of the preposition EN) ("place holy")
In Acts 6:13, the definite article is used twice:
TOU TOPOU TOU hAGIOU ("the place the holy"), common Greek construction for emphasis.
And in Acts 21:28 there are two phrases, not identical:
TOU TOPOU TOUTOU (genitive case "the place this") - in parallel to TOU LAOU (people) and TOU NOMOU (Law)
and the second time at the end of the verse with one definite article used with the additional demonstrative word "this"
TON hAGION TOPON TOUTOUN (accusative case because of the verb) ("the holy place this") - different word order.
Thanks filo, I appreciate it.
I guess the most similar would be acts 21:28 where the verse states "this holy place this" or "this holy place the same" "τον3588 T-ASM αγιον40 A-ASM τοπον5117 N-ASM τουτον5126 D-ASM"
So Acts 21:28 has the phrase "holy place" in the same combination as Matt 24:15 even though it has the articles at the begining and end of the phrase?
What would you say to this statement by William Kelly.....
Further, it was to stand where it ought not, "in the holy place;" which, it appears to me, notwithstanding the absence of the Greek article,* beyond all fair question, must mean the sanctuary in Jerusalem.
* As English admits of "market," "church," "town," "country," without the article, so did Greek yet more freely.
Regards
U
Last edited by Uzziah; 19th September 2004 at 01:34 AM.
I believe you are correct. Are you trying to figure out what the abomination of desolation is? Personally, I think it is that the temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem, then the 'pope' (not necessarily the current one) will somehow take possession of it and sit in it proclaiming himself to be God. The current 'pope' is attempting to buddy up to both the Jews and the Muslims by essentially declaring them to be saved without faith in Jesus and is the first 'pope' to have visited Jerusalem in a LONG time. It's all a political ploy to take possession of the temple whenever it is built.
Hi JJ
Yes, I'm trying to establish the meaning of the "Holy Place" in Matt 24:15 and it seems to me that the only other places that use the phrase "Holy Place" in the greek are Acts 6:13 and Acts 21:18, and both of those are references to the Temple.
So in Acts 6:13 the Jews refer to the Temple as "this Place the Holy", which is a different combination to Matt 24:15, never the less the same greek words are used for "holy" and "place". In Acts 28:18 uses the same combination "Holy Place" but the definite article is used before and after the phrase, as in "the holy place the same".
I guess the most similar would be acts 21:28 where the verse states "this holy place this" or "this holy place the same"
No, it cannot be "this holy place the same" - TOUTOU is translated as "this" in this situation. Only when it occurs between the definite article and the noun does it carry the meaning "same".
What would you say to this statement by William Kelly.....
Further, it was to stand where it ought not, "in the holy place;" which, it appears to me, notwithstanding the absence of the Greek article,* beyond all fair question, must mean the sanctuary in Jerusalem.
* As English admits of "market," "church," "town," "country," without the article, so did Greek yet more freely
I would say that he is making a generalization that is not substantiated by Greek; I would be interested to see how and where he supports this.
There are cases when the definite article is used in the Greek but not translated into English, and there are times when there is no definite article in Greek but is necessary when translated in English. But neither of those are related to how he has presented the situation.
__________________ For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 1 Corinthians 2:2
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Frederick Danker took a much more prominent role in the revision this last time around.
I still use the 1979 edition, because it is personally autographed by Danker.
__________________ For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 1 Corinthians 2:2
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Ignore the argumentative nature of this poster. He is old and can't engage
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I would say that he is making a generalization that is not substantiated by Greek; I would be interested to see how and where he supports this.
I'd be suprised if William kelly's statement wasn't true as he was one of the formost greek linguists of the 19th century. I've found a few places where "Market" and "Church" are used without the article in much the same way as Matt 24:15
e.g
Luk 7:32 They are1526 like unto3664 children3813 sitting2521 in1722 the marketplace,58 and2532 calling4377 one to another,240 and2532 saying,3004 We have piped832 unto you,5213 and2532 ye have not3756 danced;3738 we have mourned2354 to you,5213 and2532 ye have not3756 wept.2799
1Co 14:19 Yet235 in1772 the church1577 I had2309 rather speak2980 five4002 words3056 with1223 my3450 understanding,3563 that2443 by my voice I might teach2727 others243 also,2532 than2228 ten thousand3463 words3056 in1722 an unknown tongue.1100
U
Last edited by Uzziah; 20th September 2004 at 06:49 AM.
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