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View Poll Results: Is suffering persecution the result of a lack of faith. | |
Yes, If you suffer persecution it is because you lack faith.
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22nd September 2004, 04:54 PM
|  | Senior Member
   
 | | Join Date: 21st September 2003 Location: England
Posts: 729
Blessings: 35,229
Reps: 159 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by didaskalos Whoa.. stop. Back up.
T7 and VW agreed on something....
"Step out the car sir..."
I want an identity check here!
I am going to request IP address verifications on both of you.
This deserves a parade and fanfare...
Am I that argumentative and perverse? 
No, I think victoryword and I agree about lots of things. We both believe that Yahweh is a God who prospers and makes well. We both reject divine determinism. Neither of us accepts Calvin's TULIP. And so the list goes on. Probably most of our disagreements are about how far to take something and how it fits into the context of the whole.
Blessings,
T7
__________________
Theophilus7
"How precious to me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them!" (Ps. 139:17) |
22nd September 2004, 07:43 PM
| | | Originally Posted by Theophilus7 Am I that argumentative and perverse?
No, I think victoryword and I agree about lots of things. We both believe that Yahweh is a God who prospers and makes well. We both reject divine determinism. Neither of us accepts Calvin's TULIP. And so the list goes on. Probably most of our disagreements are about how far to take something and how it fits into the context of the whole.
Blessings,
T7
Just a little perverse...
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"...do not be concerned that some do not see your message. There are those who are hungrey for truth and who are seeking light. If there is truth in what you are saying, it will ring in their hearts like a bell. Those who are seeking will find, and if what they are seeking is in your saying, they will know it."
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Dids |
23rd September 2004, 10:31 AM
|  | Senior Veteran
46   
| | Join Date: 11th July 2003
Posts: 3,774
Blessings: 40,269
Reps: 463,400,833,811 (power: 463,400,843) | | Originally Posted by didaskalos Whoa.. stop. Back up.
T7 and VW agreed on something....
"Step out the car sir..."
I want an identity check here!
I am going to request IP address verifications on both of you.
This deserves a parade and fanfare...
Hey, goes to show you that ANYTHING can happen in a WoF only forum 
But actually, T7 is right. We have agreed on 95% more than we have disagreed on. Now if T7 will just get his act together then we can do something about that remaining 5% 
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Let the Scriptures Determine Your Theology, Do Not Read Your Theology into Scripture. |
23rd September 2004, 10:42 AM
| | Senior Veteran
46
| | Join Date: 11th July 2003
Posts: 3,774
Blessings: 40,269
Reps: 463,400,833,811 (power: 463,400,843) | | Originally Posted by didaskalos That is exactly what it is in many cases. It is the WOF camp responding to the carnal Christian "mental understanding" presentation of the gospel with more of the same. We feel we have to respond to every nay and answer every question. Sometimes there are not answers, and we just have to stand on the word by faith without explanation.
I hear ya' bro'
There are some things I would never have said on the Charismatic forum that I now feel safe in saying in this WoF forum because I know here my thoughts will not be misunderstood. I am committed to the Faith message as it stays true to the Scriptures.
What began bothering me even in my early days as a WoFer was the occasional pompous arrogance and extremes I saw in the movement. Because we were "Word" people we felt we must have the answer for everything.
I am thankful to the more mature WoFers like Hagin, Lindsay, and even a person who is seldom ever mentioned, Roy Hicks. Even Buddy Harrison once wrote a book rebuking his fellow WoFers. I would recommend his book, " Mercy: The Gift Before and Beyond Faith." It was these kinds of corrections (though small as they were) from within the movement that kept me in the movement and standing by it during its most severe attacks.
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Let the Scriptures Determine Your Theology, Do Not Read Your Theology into Scripture. |
23rd September 2004, 02:33 PM
| | Senior Member
| | Join Date: 21st September 2003 Location: England
Posts: 729
Blessings: 35,229
Reps: 159 (power: 0) | | Yo, Originally Posted by victoryword Hey, goes to show you that ANYTHING can happen in a WoF only forum
But actually, T7 is right
Naturally We have agreed on 95% more than we have disagreed on.
A generous estimate, but yep, we seem to agree quite often ( so there, didaskalos!  ).
Hmmm... Does that mean I'm more WoF at heart than I think I am, or does it mean you're less WoF than you say you are?  Now if T7 will just get his act together then we can do something about that remaining 5%
Heehee. I'll have to be careful. For one thing, I 'aint gonna limit God's foreknowledge/omniscience if I can help it. But I've been doing a (very) little reading on "open theism" recently and it is becoming apparent to me how easily I could slide into it from my more Wesleyan/Pentecostal/3rd wave (?) take on God's sovereignty, God's passions and God's interaction with creation. At the moment, according to my understanding of God, He is able to limit Himself, creating genuine free will and experiencing real feelings - and something that even approaches a "need" for our fellowship (deliberately chosen by God as an act of love, because we need to be needed!). I don't go along with the impassive, unaffected, indifferent, unmoved mover that seems to be some popular in Christendom. Arguably, open theism is simply a more radical continuity of some of those principles...
There's an article on Norman Geisler's website, for example, where he expresses shock and horror at various ideas emerging from Charles Pinnock's theology. Frankly, I was more concerned about Geisler's "closed system" deity!
And are my disagreements with the WoF message so numerous? Perhaps, if you compare me with Copeland, yes. But a moderate who has discarded the sillier bits of theology and refuses to absolutise the principles may be closer to me than I think...
Ah, I'm on a downward spiral, it seems. Perhaps I should just surrender my body to the flames (Hank Hanegraaf?) to be burned (1Cor 13), and get it over with!
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Theophilus7
"How precious to me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them!" (Ps. 139:17) |
23rd September 2004, 06:31 PM
|  | Senior Veteran
52
| | Join Date: 9th June 2004 Location: Deep South
Posts: 4,894
Blessings: 35,170
Reps: 13,139 (power: 0) | | Dids, you asked me to elaborate, but you didn't respond. Should I be relieved or insulted?
Grace, Mercy, and Peace,
Asaph |
24th September 2004, 02:18 PM
| | Senior Veteran
46
| | Join Date: 11th July 2003
Posts: 3,774
Blessings: 40,269
Reps: 463,400,833,811 (power: 463,400,843) | | Originally Posted by Theophilus7 A generous estimate, but yep, we seem to agree quite often ( so there, didaskalos! ).
You're right. 95% might just be a little too generous. Perhaps we might lower the percentage a little but the would mean my having to analyze past exchanges between us.
Ah well, for the sake of accurate statitsics .... Originally Posted by Theophilus7 Hmmm... Does that mean I'm more WoF at heart than I think I am, or does it mean you're less WoF than you say you are?
Sometimes I have to wonder how WoF is anyone? Some things that some define as exclusively WoF seem to be embraced by others who do not want to be identified with the camp. On the other hand, I can occasionally hear a so called WoF preacher speak AGAINST what one might define is a standard WoF doctrine.
My head is spinning ...
On the Open Theism note, since you and I are not to be debating on THIS particular forum, I won't tempt you with too many thoughts on the subject - and also I doubt if we could consider OV as a WoF subject. However, I have read very little by Pinnock on the subject though he seems to be its most ardent advocate.
So far I have read books by Gregory Boyd and John Sanders (Besides Pinnock, these two are very well known advocates of the view). I have read some other advocates such as Winky Pratney, Gordon C. Olson, and a few others out there. It seems that YWAM had embraced a form of this teaching under their Moral Government Theology doctrine. Just some interesting tidbits for you.
Now, Norman Geisler. I understand he has written a whole book against the OV. Perhaps you might want to spend some money on it and then tell me what he says (noticve I am trying as hard as I can to get you to do my research for me  )
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Let the Scriptures Determine Your Theology, Do Not Read Your Theology into Scripture. |
25th September 2004, 05:03 AM
| | Senior Member
| | Join Date: 21st September 2003 Location: England
Posts: 729
Blessings: 35,229
Reps: 159 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by victoryword On the Open Theism note, since you and I are not to be debating on THIS particular forum, I won't tempt you with too many thoughts on the subject - and also I doubt if we could consider OV as a WoF subject. However, I have read very little by Pinnock on the subject though he seems to be its most ardent advocate.
So far I have read books by Gregory Boyd and John Sanders (Besides Pinnock, these two are very well known advocates of the view). I have read some other advocates such as Winky Pratney, Gordon C. Olson, and a few others out there. It seems that YWAM had embraced a form of this teaching under their Moral Government Theology doctrine. Just some interesting tidbits for you.
Now, Norman Geisler. I understand he has written a whole book against the OV. Perhaps you might want to spend some money on it and then tell me what he says (noticve I am trying as hard as I can to get you to do my research for me )
I might just do that. I have already ordered his Christian intro. to philosophy, along with an atheist's attempt, and I have found what I presume to be a fairly neutral agnostic effort (albeit with derogatory remarks on creationism filling one chapter). I still have J.P. Moreland's and William Lane Craig's intermediate text waiting to be read, the complete set of Francis Schaeffer's books on the way, and...
As you can see, my plate is rather full at the moment with (shock, horror!  ) philosophy. However, I think I shall turn my attention to the OT/OV debate, in a small way, sooner or later. But not just yet.
All for now,
T7
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Theophilus7
"How precious to me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them!" (Ps. 139:17) | | |
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