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View Poll Results: Is suffering persecution the result of a lack of faith. | |
Yes, If you suffer persecution it is because you lack faith.
|     | 1 | 5.88% | |
No, Suffering persecution is the duty of every believer, even unto death.
|    | 16 | 94.12% |
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20th September 2004, 05:19 PM
|  | The Lord's Beloved......
     
| | Join Date: 23rd August 2004 Location: In God's Amazing Grace!
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Reps: 100,922,050,534,811 (power: 100,922,050,541) | | Uhm, I want to stick my two cents worth in here on this. I voted no on the poll, but I would want to be very sure that it was a part of God's perfect will for my life, to let the persecution go unto death....know what I mean? I desire to walk in all of His perfect will for my life....now if someone was out to kill me for my beliefs, I would have to know that it was a part of God's plan for me....otherwise, I would stand against it on the Word, and trust in it's protection for my life. Like I stood in faith against the two hurricanes I went thru this summer....I praise God for His goodness to protect me and mine and bring me out the other side whole with nothing missing and nothing broken!  The storms were meant to kill and destroy as much as possible and are a form of persecution.
As far as persecution from other humans against Christians go, isn't that just a given, considering what Jesus said about it? I mean, the secular media and the liberal contingent have been trying to put down Christianity anyway and anywhere they can lately. Suffering because of our beliefs just sort of comes with the territory anymore. Mostly because the church laid down on the issues in the last century, and gave the devil's advocates a huge foothold in the earth today.
When I think of suffering in my walk, it has more to do with laying down my own way, the carnal life and following God's way. Obedience to God in all of the areas of our lives, especially the flesh is what produces suffering, because our soul & flesh just want their own way all the time!  Those are just my thoughts on this....I always kind of separate the two things when I think of them. Here ends my 2 cents worth! 
Blessed Be Jesus My Lord!
lovesblessing  |
20th September 2004, 06:48 PM
| | | Thanks for sharing Brother. T7 said that some teach along these lines. Can you flesh out your position some more?
I respect your opinion and would like to see where this comes from.
Thanks again, and:
Blessings to Asaph!
Originally Posted by Asaph Ok ok ok, I admit it. I voted yes because the Yes side just looked so beat and I can't resist pulling for the underdog! 
In truth, a man without faith can't be persecuted. If a person is not in the faith then it's called casting down arguments and every high thing that exaults itself against God, not persecution.
Grace, Mercy, and Peace,
Asaph
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Dids |
21st September 2004, 11:27 AM
|  | If you have not love...
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 | | Join Date: 17th June 2004 Location: Waynesville, Missouri
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Reps: 1,443 (power: 8) | | Originally Posted by Asaph Ok ok ok, I admit it. I voted yes because the Yes side just looked so beat and I can't resist pulling for the underdog!
In truth, a man without faith can't be persecuted. If a person is not in the faith then it's called casting down arguments and every high thing that exaults itself against God, not persecution.
Grace, Mercy, and Peace,
Asaph  |
21st September 2004, 01:37 PM
|  | Senior Veteran
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| | Join Date: 9th June 2004 Location: Deep South
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Reps: 13,139 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by didaskalos Thanks for sharing Brother. T7 said that some teach along these lines. Can you flesh out your position some more?
I respect your opinion and would like to see where this comes from.
Thanks again, and:
Blessings to Asaph!
I don't know how well I can lay it out but will try. The idea is that one who has no faith cannot be persecuted for that which he doesn't have. Take this guy for example:
Acts 13:7-11
8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so his name is translated) withstood them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith. 9 Then Saul, who also is called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him 10 and said, "O full of all deceit and all fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease perverting the straight ways of the Lord? 11 And now, indeed, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you shall be blind, not seeing the sun for a time." And immediately a dark mist fell on him, and he went around seeking someone to lead him by the hand.
NKJV
Would you say that Paul was persecuting this fellow? No. Paul was casting down arguements. Elymas could not be persecuted for something he didn't have.
Something a little more modern would be the Mormans in MO. The locals there were not very fond of them and set about making life rough for them, even to the point of killing their leader and kicking them out of the state. Can that be called persecution? I don't think so because they teach a different gospel with a different Jesus. Just because they use some of the same words as Christians, does not mean they are Christian. So then was this persecution or casting down every high thing that exaults itself against the knowledge of God? I say the latter.
Now lets say I go to Iraq. I'm a radically saved born again Christian. If someone were to come up to me on the streets of Bagdad and ask me if I were a Christian and I say yes, that would be done in faith and I may end up dead for it or at least bashed about. But lets say I wavered in my faith at that moment and told them I was muslim instead. My lack of faith would have lessened the chances of me getting persecuted, not increased them.
That's why I say without faith we cannot be persecuted.
Grace, Mercy, and Peace,
Asaph |
21st September 2004, 05:46 PM
|  | Senior Veteran
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| | Join Date: 11th July 2003
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Reps: 463,400,833,811 (power: 463,400,843) | | Originally Posted by Theophilus7 Where is my question? Just this: are these views common to WoF?
Kenneth E. Hagin wrote a book on persecution that would probably contrast what you say is written/taught by the Copelands and Price. If Gordon Lindsay, founder of CFNI, could be considered an early Word-Faither (I vote yes) then a book that he has written would also dispute what you say is taught by the aformementioned WoFers.
I did hear Dr. Price teach somewhat on the subject of suffering last year (I think) and I must say that I did disagree with what he was teaching at the time. I figured that I would buy the book to see exactly what he had to say about it.
I know that some WoFers taught that "Paul missed it" when, after being prophesied about what would happen to him in Jerusalem, he went any way and was persecuted. I listened to a tape series by Hagin in which he directly opposed that interpretation. Hagin, showing other passages from Acts, taught that it had to be the will of God for Paul to be imprisioned because God wanted Paul to speak to Ceaser.
I wrote this to say that the Word-of-Faith Movement does not have a set standard of doctrine on any subject - at least not by those who boldly declare themselves to be WoF.
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Let the Scriptures Determine Your Theology, Do Not Read Your Theology into Scripture. |
22nd September 2004, 03:11 AM
|  | Senior Member
| | Join Date: 21st September 2003 Location: England
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Reps: 159 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by victoryword Kenneth E. Hagin wrote a book on persecution that would probably contrast what you say is written/taught by the Copelands and Price. If Gordon Lindsay, founder of CFNI, could be considered an early Word-Faither (I vote yes) then a book that he has written would also dispute what you say is taught by the aformementioned WoFers.
I did hear Dr. Price teach somewhat on the subject of suffering last year (I think) and I must say that I did disagree with what he was teaching at the time. I figured that I would buy the book to see exactly what he had to say about it.
I know that some WoFers taught that "Paul missed it" when, after being prophesied about what would happen to him in Jerusalem, he went any way and was persecuted. I listened to a tape series by Hagin in which he directly opposed that interpretation. Hagin, showing other passages from Acts, taught that it had to be the will of God for Paul to be imprisioned because God wanted Paul to speak to Ceaser.
I wrote this to say that the Word-of-Faith Movement does not have a set standard of doctrine on any subject - at least not by those who boldly declare themselves to be WoF.
Thanks victoryword. Good to see you back  .
I have Hagin's book and agree with his position. (Actually, Must Christians Suffer along with The Midas Touch helped to preserve my respect for Hagin. Do you think Hagin dipped into Charles Farah's book, From the Pinnacle of the Temple?)
BTW, Keith Moore was on BVOV a while back and he also refuted the "Paul missed it" notion (good for him), so perhaps the Copeland/Hagin dichotomy on this issue is not so profound.
I have to confess though, my friends, if there is anything that makes my cold English blood start to boil and clouds of steam to come shooting out of my ears, it's when comfortable Charismatics in the prosperous West begin to belittle the suffering of the persecuted Church and insinuate that, if they only had more faith, or "more revelation", they wouldn't be in the mess they're in!  That truly tests my patience! (Is there a smiley with steam coming out of its ears? )
All for now,
T7
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Theophilus7
"How precious to me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them!" (Ps. 139:17) |
22nd September 2004, 11:21 AM
| | Senior Veteran
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Reps: 463,400,833,811 (power: 463,400,843) | | | Though I have never heard anyone take it to that extreme, I would also be bothered by any teaching that said that Christians in Communist and Islamic countries who are suffering for the faith lack faith. The Bible teaches us that it take FAITH to ENDURE PERSECUTION. Any faith teacher who says otherwise is taking an otherwise valid message to an unbiblical extreme.
Allow me to add that Christians are sometimes REACTIONARY. In order to oppse an extreme error on one side of the ditch, we sometimes go to another side and fall into an opposite error. Because the church was teaching some erroneous views on suffering, some of us as WoFers may have REACTED to this and went overboard.
We really do need to stay in the middle of the road on these subjects.
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Let the Scriptures Determine Your Theology, Do Not Read Your Theology into Scripture. |
22nd September 2004, 01:39 PM
| | Senior Member
| | Join Date: 21st September 2003 Location: England
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Reps: 159 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by victoryword Though I have never heard anyone take it to that extreme, I would also be bothered by any teaching that said that Christians in Communist and Islamic countries who are suffering for the faith lack faith. The Bible teaches us that it take FAITH to ENDURE PERSECUTION. Any faith teacher who says otherwise is taking an otherwise valid message to an unbiblical extreme.
Allow me to add that Christians are sometimes REACTIONARY. In order to oppse an extreme error on one side of the ditch, we sometimes go to another side and fall into an opposite error. Because the church was teaching some erroneous views on suffering, some of us as WoFers may have REACTED to this and went overboard.
We really do need to stay in the middle of the road on these subjects.
Just so.
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Theophilus7
"How precious to me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them!" (Ps. 139:17) |
22nd September 2004, 02:51 PM
| | | Originally Posted by victoryword Though I have never heard anyone take it to that extreme, I would also be bothered by any teaching that said that Christians in Communist and Islamic countries who are suffering for the faith lack faith. The Bible teaches us that it take FAITH to ENDURE PERSECUTION. Any faith teacher who says otherwise is taking an otherwise valid message to an unbiblical extreme.
Allow me to add that Christians are sometimes REACTIONARY. In order to oppse an extreme error on one side of the ditch, we sometimes go to another side and fall into an opposite error. Because the church was teaching some erroneous views on suffering, some of us as WoFers may have REACTED to this and went overboard.
We really do need to stay in the middle of the road on these subjects.
That is exactly what it is in many cases. It is the WOF camp responding to the carnal Christian "mental understanding" presentation of the gospel with more of the same. We feel we have to respond to every nay and answer every question. Sometimes there are not answers, and we just have to stand on the word by faith without explanation.
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"...do not be concerned that some do not see your message. There are those who are hungrey for truth and who are seeking light. If there is truth in what you are saying, it will ring in their hearts like a bell. Those who are seeking will find, and if what they are seeking is in your saying, they will know it."
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Dids |
22nd September 2004, 02:54 PM
| | | |
__________________
HELLO SAINTS!
See my best ranting and raving here:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
"...do not be concerned that some do not see your message. There are those who are hungrey for truth and who are seeking light. If there is truth in what you are saying, it will ring in their hearts like a bell. Those who are seeking will find, and if what they are seeking is in your saying, they will know it."
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Dids | | |
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