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  #11  
Old 16th January 2004, 08:15 PM
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I have one. Tell me how dirt decided it was just going to all of a sudden get up and walk away without any human or divine intervention whatsoever. No catalyst. Nothing. No reason in the world why this little piece of dirt decided it was going to turn into a living organism. No preprogrammed ability for it to do so, either. No built in abilities for that to happen. Absolutely NONE.

To think that any piece of dirt would do that even today is absolutely preposterous. If there is, I have a whole other planet in my backyard.

Even better. This is great. Evolution happens with populations. So different populations of dirt just happened to up and form different forms of life. Then a particular group of amoebas from the many populations decided that life in the water just didn't cut the mustard anymore, they grew legs, floated up to land and walked away for no apparent reason.

Wonderful. Absolutely laughable. lol
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  #12  
Old 16th January 2004, 08:19 PM
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OHhhhhh!! I almost forgot Spontaneous Generation. Right. How everyone loved to argue the specifics of the definition. In one sense of the word, the following is true.

One piece of dirt (or many in the case of the Abominable Snowman and Tyrannosaurus Rex), all of a sudden goes "poof" and like magic this dinosaur appears. No human or divine intervention. No catalyst. No reason whatsoever. It just woke up and didn't feel like being dirt that morning.

That's priceless. The Acme dinosaur kit. Just add water and dirt. (doesn't that make a mud pie???? )
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Last edited by drfeelgood; 16th January 2004 at 08:27 PM.
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  #13  
Old 16th January 2004, 08:28 PM
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I guess the opening post should probably be amended to ask:

"Has anyone EVER seen a creationist argument that does not rest on strawmen caricatures of science or philosophically non-debatable premises that hasn't been refuted?"
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  #14  
Old 16th January 2004, 08:28 PM
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I think you are mistaken...It was Creationism where stuff just appeared out of dirt
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life

and thanks for the amusing stawman...its always funny....LOL
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  #15  
Old 16th January 2004, 08:31 PM
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It's not a strawman, though. That's abiogenesis and spontaneous generation at it's finest.

Non-living matter becomes living. One form of spontaneous generation, it becomes a single-celled organism. The other form, it becomes a full blown living creature. No catalyst. No human or divine intervention. No preprogrammed ability. No built in abilities of any sort to accomplish said feat. NOTHING.

Evolution in populations supposedly takes over from there.

That's the joke of epidemic proportions. It's hard to believe they actually teach this rubbish in schools.
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  #16  
Old 16th January 2004, 08:33 PM
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The only thing I believe, and one thing that is pointed out from time to time, is that there are genes in our bodies that limit speciation. We CAN'T evolve past a certain point. Our brains can't get any bigger than a set size. Our eyes can only be so many colours. We can only have so many legs.

Why is that?
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  #17  
Old 16th January 2004, 08:46 PM
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no you are wrong abibogensis is very logical and has been created out of emperical evidence http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank...es/do53am.html
no it is God that is the unneeded assumption to the orgins of life.
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  #18  
Old 16th January 2004, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by drfeelgood
The only thing I believe, and one thing that is pointed out from time to time, is that there are genes in our bodies that limit speciation. We CAN'T evolve past a certain point. Our brains can't get any bigger than a set size. Our eyes can only be so many colours. We can only have so many legs.
And your support for this is...?
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  #19  
Old 16th January 2004, 09:05 PM
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I'm going to save myself the time and post this

PLEASE NOTE!!! This is NOT my work. This is someone else's in another forum. I am using it to refute the specific experiment you mentioned, that is all. Why reword it?

As with so much of evolution, the misinformation on the topics related thereto have been so often repeated instead of being deleted, especially in school curriculums and textbooks, not to mention sites like these, that science fiction has been masquerading as science.


An important pioneer in scientific research on abiogenesis is Alexander I. Oparin. In 1924, he determined what chemicals must be in the earth atmosphere for amino acids to be formed (e.g. methane, hydrogen, ammonia) and what chemicals ought not be there that will prohibit the formation of amino acids (e.g. Oxygen). Scientists like A.I. Oparin and J.B.S. Haldane proposed a sequence for life's origins in the 1920's, from complicated molecules in an oily liquid he called coacervate droplets, to the first protocell, to enzymes, to finally genes.

Miller prepared an experiment to observe what complicated molecules' might be produced under Oparin-Haldane's proposed ideal pre-biotic atmosphere. Sure enough, in an assumed atmosphere that was DESIGNED to produce amino acids, it was not at all surprising that amino acids formed:

The Products of the Miller Experiment: Tar 85%
Carboxylic acids not important to life 13.0%
Glycine 1.05%
Alanine 0.85%
Glutamic acid trace
Aspartic acid trace
Valine trace
Leucine trace
Serine trace
Proline trace
Treonine trace

Note: Glycine and Alanine are the two simplest amino acids of the twenty proteinous amino acids found in living creatures.

Miller's results were well received and widely reported by the mass media to be a major confirmation of evolution and of life arising spontaneously without a Creator. It became a valuable weapon in the evolutionists' propaganda arsenal for brain washing and brow beating the public and more so, unwary students, into accepting the legitimacy of Evolution.

The Miller-Urey experiment that produced amino acids under laboratory controlled conditions, has been misrepresented in many High school, college and other text books. It is often presented that this experiment demonstrates that amino acids, necessary for life, form naturally in a primitive atmosphere. It is usually further asserted or implied that this experiment demonstrates that abiogenesis is highly probable and that this further demonstrates that evolution (Darwinian) is indeed a fact. Of course such textbooks are nonsense, this experiment demonstrates nothing of the kind. In fact, the Miller-Urey experiment demonstrates the opposite, it revealed the overwhelming difficulties that exists with the view that life can form naturally from non-living chemicals.

The key word above is 'controlled'. Intelligent control is what gets one the outcome they are looking for.

Using a system of glass flasks, Steven Miller attempted to simulate Alexander Oparin's ideal atmospheric conditions. He passed a mixture of H2O, ammonia, methane and hydrogen through an electrical spark discharge. At the bottom of the apparatus was a trap to capture any molecules made by the reaction. This trap prevented whatever chemicals formed from being destroyed by the energy source used to create them. Eventually, Miller was able to produce the above described mixture, containing the amino acids described above, the building blocks of proteins.

This was as good as the science ever got for the evolutionists and their hopes for abiogenesis. From now on things get much worse for the Evolutionists. What the public and students have not been told about what science knows concerning the 'origin of life'.

To achieve his results, Miller had to use something that material evolutionists 'KNOW' did not exist in the pre-biotic earth, intelligence, and mental "know-how". He drew on decades of knowledge of organic chemistry in setting up his experiment. The proportions of the various gases used, the actual apparatus, the position of the electrodes, the intensity of the spark, and the chemical trap, were all carefully adjusted to create maximum yield from the experiment.

Many attempts by Stanley Miller failed to produce any amino acids or other building blocks of life.

In an effort to make his Oparin atmosphere to mimic actual atmospheric conditions, Miller arranged fro his electrical discharge to simulate lightning. After a week of these lightning type electrical discharges in the reaction chamber, the sides of the chamber turned black and the liquid mixture turned a cloudy red. The predominant product was a gummy black substance made up of billions of carbon atoms strung together in what was essentially tar, a common nuisance in organic reactions.

However, no amino acids used by living systems, or other building blocks of life, were produced on these first attempts. In his own words, Miller stated "An attempt was made to simulate lightning discharge by building up a large quantity of charge on a condenser until the spark jumped the gap between the electrodes. ... Very few organic compounds were produced and this discharge was not investigated further." from Robert Shapiro: "Origins, A Skeptics Guide ..." P. 103., 1986.

Only by constantly readjusting and fine tuning his apparatus and using a continuous electrical charge that Miller eventually obtained the amino acids indicated it above. Even when using the same gas mixture and a continuous electrical discharge, Miller did not obtain any positive results until placing the apparatus in a different order. Shapiro, Ph.D. Chemistry, noted that with respect to the use of "Intelligence" and "Know How:" on the part of the experimenters to achieve the results they desire in "Origin of Life" type experiments:

(P. 102-103)

"another significant factor also influences the products being formed in an experiment of this type, but is less recognized, selection by the experimenter."

"One clear message should emerge from this discussion. A variety of results may be possible from the same general type of experiment. The experimenter, by manipulating apparently unimportant variables, can affect the outcome profoundly. The data that he reports may be valid, but if only these results are communicated, a false impression may arise concerning the universality of the process. This situation was noticed by Creationist writer, Martin Lubenow, who commented: "I am convinced that in every origin of life experiment devised by evolutionists, the intelligence of the experimenter is involved in such a way as to prejudice the experiment.""

Now it gets much worse for Abiogenesis.

The tar tends to fix the amino acids so that they are not that free to
bond, which must happen if theses amino acids are to form any kind of
molecular structures leading to a replicating life form.

Now it gets fatally worse for abiogenesis. Miller's amino acids are useless as a basis for abiogenesis.

The amino acids formed were racemates. That is, each amino acid was
produced in equal quantities of Dexterorotary (Right handed Molecules)
and Laevorotary (Left handed) molecules. Furthermore, both right and
left handed amino acids bond to each other equally well. However, all
of life's proteins are made from left-handed amino acid chains. If
just a single right handed amino acid molecule binds to a forming
three dimensional chain of left handed amino acids, that right handed
amino acid is lethal to the formation of the three dimensional chain.
"Without exception, all of Miller's amino acids are completely
unsuitable for any type of spontaneous generation of life. And the
same applies to all and any randomly formed substances and amino acids
that form racemates. This statement is categorical and absolute and
cannot be affected by special conditions. This is scientific fact." (1)

You can never even "naturally" achieve an RNA world because of this
scientific fact.

All amino acids that form by natural causes alone are racemized. Even those found on comets are racemized.

Though the above is fatal to any scenario for abiogenesis, things continued to get worse for the evolutionists conception of origins.

Oparin's ideal atmosphere of Methane, Ammonia, Hydrogen, and without Oxygen never existed! We've known for at least the past thirty years that the pre-biotic atmosphere had oxygen that is lethal to the formation of life's building blocks, and it had at best, traces of methane, ammonia, and hydrogen. Ultra-violet let would have destroyed amino acids formed in the atmosphere, and the chemicals of the ocean would have destroyed life's building blocks that ended up there.

Along the lines of beating a dead horse, the evolutionists hope for abiogenesis gets even more bad news from science:

When amino acids bond together in prebiotic experiments, they do so in several different ways using several types of links as the molecular bonds. Only the type of link known as alpha link is used in all proteins from known life. In origin of life experiments, the alpha link is greatly outnumbered by the other types of links. Even if we greatly favor the evolutionists possibilities by allowing for every link in a forming 100 unit polypeptide chain to have a 50-50 chance of being an alpha type link, the probability of getting a 100 unit amino acid chain using only alpha links is 10 to the 30th power to one.

And it still gets still for the evolutionists:

There are 20 amino acids needed for life. These are called proteinous amino acids. There are thousands of amino acids that are not proteinous. Stephen Gould once asked, "Why only a few amino acids in organisms when the [primordial] soup must have contained at least ten times as many." Amino acid molecules can link-up (polymerize) to form polypeptide chains. Those with certain structure and characteristics are called functional proteins. Functional proteins will consist of chains of 90 to 1000 amino acids. In a soup containing proteinous amino acids and 10 times the number of non-proteinous amino acids (which Gould says must have been there) then the probability of getting a functional protein consisting of 100 proteinous amino acids is 10 to the 100th power to one. It is not going to happen.

There is other scienctific facts that also drive the nails into the coffin of the concept abiobenesis.

To make life, we need amino acids, sugars, bases, and phosphates. This gives us other catch 22's. You need formaldehyde to make sugars, but formaldehyde fixes amino acids so that they do not react. Methane polymerizes formaldehyde, but must be present to make amino acids. Amino acids plus bases destroys formaldehyde. Calcium and magnesium in our oceans destroy phosphates, you can't get phosphates in oceans. Energy needed to make amino acids also destroys the amino acids.

R. Shapiro, Ph.D. Chemistry, "The Improbability of Prebiotic Nucleic Acid Synthesis" 14 Origin of Life 565, 1984, relates how experiments like Miller-Urey have very limited significance because of the implausible conditions under which they are conducted:

"Many accounts of the origin of life assume the spontaneous synthesis of a self replicating nucleic acid could take place readily. However, these procedures use pure starting materials, afford poor yields, and are run under conditions that are not compatible with one another. Any nucleic acid components that were formed in the primitive earth would tend to hydrolyze by a number of pathways. Their polarization would be inhibited by the presence of vast numbers of related substances which would react preferentially with them."

The above is much more than enough to convince all reasonable people that abiogenesis is scientifically unfeasible. Louis Pasteur is correct when he gave us the biogenetic law that states that life only comes from life. It takes intelligence and 'know how' to create life. Non-thoughtful processes can not create life because those processes are controlled by the Laws of Physics and Chemistry and they can not place the necessary boundary conditions on the laws of physics and chemistry to form a living being.

I could go on and on, but the point is made. What the laws of chemistry and physics tells us is that the most profound statement ever written on origin of life is: "In the beginning, G-d Created...". (1) Arthur Ernest Wilder-Smith: "The Natural Sciences Know Nothing of Evolution", p. 17, (1981, TWFT Publishers).
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  #20  
Old 16th January 2004, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete Harcoff
And your support for this is...?
Wasn't it lucaspa that just posted an article about the gene limiting brain size the other day? I'm pretty certain of it.
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