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Creation & Evolution Forum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too.

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  #1  
Old 8th September 2004, 02:22 PM
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Evolution is both a Fact and a Theory

Those who have studied evolution from sources other than Creationist sites are constantly annoyed by the misunderstanding of basic scientific concepts tossed out by YECs. Even when AiG tells people that they should no longer say the "Evolution is just a theory, it hasn't been proven", we still hear it all the time. So, I decided to post a good description of why evolution is both a fact and a theory. Remember folks, you don't prove theories. Theories are not the types of things that are proven. Here it goes:

"When non-biologists talk about biological evolution they often confuse two different aspects of the definition. On the one hand there is the question of whether or not modern organisms have evolved from older ancestral organisms or whether modern species are continuing to change over time. On the other hand there are questions about the mechanism of the observed changes... how did evolution occur? Biologists consider the existence of biological evolution to be a fact. It can be demonstrated today and the historical evidence for its occurrence in the past is overwhelming. However, biologists readily admit that they are less certain of the exact mechanism of evolution; there are several theories of the mechanism of evolution. Stephen J. Gould has put this as well as anyone else:
In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"--part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus the power of the creationist argument: evolution is "only" a theory and intense debate now rages about many aspects of the theory. If evolution is worse than a fact, and scientists can't even make up their minds about the theory, then what confidence can we have in it? Indeed, President Reagan echoed this argument before an evangelical group in Dallas when he said (in what I devoutly hope was campaign rhetoric): "Well, it is a theory. It is a scientific theory only, and it has in recent years been challenged in the world of science--that is, not believed in the scientific community to be as infallible as it once was." Well evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.

Moreover, "fact" doesn't mean "absolute certainty"; there ain't no such animal in an exciting and complex world. The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us falsely for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

Evolutionists have been very clear about this distinction of fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory--natural selection--to explain the mechanism of evolution.

- Stephen J. Gould, " Evolution as Fact and Theory"; Discover, May 1981

Gould is stating the prevailing view of the scientific community. In other words, the experts on evolution consider it to be a fact. This is not an idea that originated with Gould as the following quotations indicate:
Let me try to make crystal clear what is established beyond reasonable doubt, and what needs further study, about evolution. Evolution as a process that has always gone on in the history of the earth can be doubted only by those who are ignorant of the evidence or are resistant to evidence, owing to emotional blocks or to plain bigotry. By contrast, the mechanisms that bring evolution about certainly need study and clarification. There are no alternatives to evolution as history that can withstand critical examination. Yet we are constantly learning new and important facts about evolutionary mechanisms. - Theodosius Dobzhansky "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution", American Biology Teacher vol. 35 (March 1973) reprinted in Evolution versus Creationism, J. Peter Zetterberg ed., ORYX Press, Phoenix AZ 1983

Also:
It is time for students of the evolutionary process, especially those who have been misquoted and used by the creationists, to state clearly that evolution is a fact, not theory, and that what is at issue within biology are questions of details of the process and the relative importance of different mechanisms of evolution. It is a fact that the earth with liquid water, is more than 3.6 billion years old. It is a fact that cellular life has been around for at least half of that period and that organized multicellular life is at least 800 million years old. It is a fact that major life forms now on earth were not at all represented in the past. There were no birds or mammals 250 million years ago. It is a fact that major life forms of the past are no longer living. There used to be dinosaurs and Pithecanthropus, and there are none now. It is a fact that all living forms come from previous living forms. Therefore, all present forms of life arose from ancestral forms that were different. Birds arose from nonbirds and humans from nonhumans. No person who pretends to any understanding of the natural world can deny these facts any more than she or he can deny that the earth is round, rotates on its axis, and revolves around the sun. The controversies about evolution lie in the realm of the relative importance of various forces in molding evolution.

- R. C. Lewontin "Evolution/Creation Debate: A Time for Truth" Bioscience 31, 559 (1981) reprinted in Evolution versus Creationism, op cit.

This concept is also explained in introductory biology books that are used in colleges and universities (and in some of the better high schools). For example, in some of the best such textbooks we find:
Today, nearly all biologists acknowledge that evolution is a fact. The term theory is no longer appropriate except when referring to the various models that attempt to explain how life evolves... it is important to understand that the current questions about how life evolves in no way implies any disagreement over the fact of evolution. - Neil A. Campbell, Biology 2nd ed., 1990, Benjamin/Cummings, p. 434

Also:
Since Darwin's time, massive additional evidence has accumulated supporting the fact of evolution--that all living organisms present on earth today have arisen from earlier forms in the course of earth's long history. Indeed, all of modern biology is an affirmation of this relatedness of the many species of living things and of their gradual divergence from one another over the course of time. Since the publication of The Origin of Species, the important question, scientifically speaking, about evolution has not been whether it has taken place. That is no longer an issue among the vast majority of modern biologists. Today, the central and still fascinating questions for biologists concern the mechanisms by which evolution occurs. - Helena Curtis and N. Sue Barnes, Biology 5th ed. 1989, Worth Publishers, p. 972

One of the best introductory books on evolution (as opposed to introductory biology) is that by Douglas J. Futuyma, and he makes the following comment:
A few words need to be said about the "theory of evolution," which most people take to mean the proposition that organisms have evolved from common ancestors. In everyday speech, "theory" often means a hypothesis or even a mere speculation. But in science, "theory" means "a statement of what are held to be the general laws, principles, or causes of something known or observed." as the Oxford English Dictionary defines it. The theory of evolution is a body of interconnected statements about natural selection and the other processes that are thought to cause evolution, just as the atomic theory of chemistry and the Newtonian theory of mechanics are bodies of statements that describe causes of chemical and physical phenomena. In contrast, the statement that organisms have descended with modifications from common ancestors--the historical reality of evolution--is not a theory. It is a fact, as fully as the fact of the earth's revolution about the sun. Like the heliocentric solar system, evolution began as a hypothesis, and achieved "facthood" as the evidence in its favor became so strong that no knowledgeable and unbiased person could deny its reality. No biologist today would think of submitting a paper entitled "New evidence for evolution;" it simply has not been an issue for a century. - Douglas J. Futuyma, Evolutionary Biology, 2nd ed., 1986, Sinauer Associates, p. 15

We also need to distinguish between facts that are easy to demonstrate and those that are more circumstantial. Examples of evolution that are readily apparent include the fact that modern populations are evolving and the fact that two closely related species share a common ancestor. The evidence that Homo sapiens and chimpanzees share a recent common ancestor falls into this category. There is so much evidence in support of this aspect of primate evolution that it qualifies as a fact by any common definition of the word "fact."

[here is the part Mark Kennedy will like]
In other cases the available evidence is less strong. For example, the relationships of some of the major phyla are still being worked out. Also, the statement that all organisms have descended from a single common ancestor is strongly supported by the available evidence, and there is no opposing evidence. However, it is not yet appropriate to call this a "fact" since there are reasonable alternatives.
Finally, there is an epistemological argument against evolution as fact. Some readers of these newsgroups point out that nothing in science can ever be "proven" and this includes evolution. According to this argument, the probability that evolution is the correct explanation of life as we know it may approach 99.9999...9% but it will never be 100%. Thus evolution cannot be a fact. This kind of argument might be appropriate in a philosophy class (it is essentially correct) but it won't do in the real world. A "fact," as Stephen J. Gould pointed out (see above), means something that is so highly probable that it would be silly not to accept it. This point has also been made by others who contest the nit-picking epistemologists."

See here: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html
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Old 8th September 2004, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Vance
Even when AiG tells people that they should no longer say the "Evolution is just a theory, it hasn't been proven", we still hear it all the time.

Biologists consider the existence of biological evolution to be a fact. It can be demonstrated today and the historical evidence for its occurrence in the past is overwhelming. However, biologists readily admit that they are less certain of the exact mechanism of evolution; there are several theories of the mechanism of evolution.
The bottom line is the same: Evolution is just a theory, it hasn't been proven. Waving your hands, doing a dance and shaking a baby rattle is not going to change that. The only "fact" about evolution is that it's a word in our dictionary that no two people seem to be able to agree on the definition for. Not even Biologists or "experts" or people who should be able to agree on just what evolution is.

Then on top of that the "facts" of evolution changes from week to week. You have the soup of the day and the flavor of the week. So your not fooling us, if anyone is deceived here it is evolutionists who are trying to peddle their nonsense on others. Oh, they will sprinkle a little bit of truth in here and there. But finding the truth is more like looking for a needle in a haystack or a hidden treasure. Because it's more theory and supposition than anything else.

So the bottom line is with science you can come up with "facts" to prove anything you want to prove, if there is any substance to it or not. But chances are someone has fudged the data to get it to "prove" whatever point they are attempting to prove.

Nothing has changed from the very beginning. Back 4000 years ago, Abraham was called out from the Chandeans who later went on to become a part of Babylon. Their "facts" contained to much error and the "facts" today continue to contain to much error.

Babylon has not fallen yet, it is still alive. But the day well come, when it well tumble. People will wonder how something that has survived for all these years will come to nothing in a days time.

Rev. 18:2
And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird!

Rev. 18:4
And I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.
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Old 8th September 2004, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnR7
The bottom line is the same: Evolution is just a theory, it hasn't been proven. Waving your hands, doing a dance and shaking a baby rattle is not going to change that. The only "fact" about evolution is that it's a word in our dictionary that no two people seem to be able to agree on the definition for. Not even Biologists or "experts" or people who should be able to agree on just what evolution is.

Then on top of that the "facts" of evolution changes from week to week. You have the soup of the day and the flavor of the week. So your not fooling us, if anyone is deceived here it is evolutionists who are trying to peddle their nonsense on others. Oh, they will sprinkle a little bit of truth in here and there. But finding the truth is more like looking for a needle in a haystack or a hidden treasure. Because it's more theory and supposition than anything else.

So the bottom line is with science you can come up with "facts" to prove anything you want to prove, if there is any substance to it or not. But chances are someone has fudged the data to get it to "prove" whatever point they are attempting to prove.

Nothing has changed from the very beginning. Back 4000 years ago, Abraham was called out from the Chandeans who later went on to become a part of Babylon. Their "facts" contained to much error and the "facts" today continue to contain to much error.

Babylon has not fallen yet, it is still alive. But the day well come, when it well tumble. People will wonder how something that has survived for all these years will come to nothing in a days time.

Rev. 18:2
And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird!

Rev. 18:4
And I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.
Yet another baseless attack on science from John. Blah blah blah.
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Old 8th September 2004, 03:16 PM
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But, John, you do realize that theories are not proven, right?

You know, simple, basic science 101? Of course you do.

So, why do you make statements like:

"Evolution is just a theory, it hasn't been proven."

when you know good and well that this is a nonsensical statement. Theories are never proven. They are either falsified or they are not falsified. A theory that has not been falsified may still not be correct, and its acceptance as the most likely theory may be debated, but even the most accepted theories in science (which includes evolution) are never proven.

Regarding the facts, you can say all day long that the facts are not facts, but the only way this will hold any water is to go through the facts they state AS facts above and explain why they are NOT facts. The scientific community has done more than its part to establish all these facts based on accepted scientific standards. Now it is up to those that dispute these facts to show, also by accepted scientific standards, that they are not facts at all.

And the facts of evolution do not change every week, as you well know. What will always change are the concepts about exactly how the various details of the mechanics actually work. All the facts stated in the OP have never been changed since they were discovered.

All the rest of your post is rhetorical claptrap designed to tickle the ears of the YEC's who are sincerely threatened by the truths pointed out in the OP. Creationists (old and new) get very nervous when we get too close their straw men with torches. They know that if their straw men versions of evolution are burned up, they will have to explain away the real definitions and evidence for evolution.

Last edited by Vance; 11th October 2004 at 02:21 PM.
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Old 8th September 2004, 04:17 PM
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Namaste Vance,


wow... great post!

as they say in chess...

check and mate.
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Old 8th September 2004, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Ishmael Borg
Yet another baseless attack on science from John. Blah blah blah.
It is not baseless at all. Scientific "facts" are not so etched in stone as evolutionists would like to lead us to believe. Anyone with an advanced degree in science knows that.
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Old 8th September 2004, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Vance
So, why do you make statements like:

"Evolution is just a theory, it hasn't been proven."
Because your post was an attempt to falsify the statement. So that means I have to take the position that the statement is true. It is your statement here that we are working with, not mine.

when you know good and well that this is a nonsensical statement.


Well if it is a nonsense statement, then you just falsified your own arguement. That is what we refer to as a strawman, you create a statement then you falsify your own nonsense statement.
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Old 8th September 2004, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnR7
The bottom line is the same: Evolution is just a theory, it hasn't been proven. Waving your hands, doing a dance and shaking a baby rattle is not going to change that. The only "fact" about evolution is that it's a word in our dictionary that no two people seem to be able to agree on the definition for. Not even Biologists or "experts" or people who should be able to agree on just what evolution is.


Well, they can certainly agree to what it is not... if Creationists would only get it straight, we wouldn't have to repeat the same old definitions 2-3 times a week, and perhaps move on to some actual progress.

Then on top of that the "facts" of evolution changes from week to week. You have the soup of the day and the flavor of the week.


We call it "learning," Johnny. Try it sometime and see how your "facts" change.

So your not fooling us, if anyone is deceived here it is evolutionists who are trying to peddle their nonsense on others. Oh, they will sprinkle a little bit of truth in here and there. But finding the truth is more like looking for a needle in a haystack or a hidden treasure. Because it's more theory and supposition than anything else.


And what would you offer instead?

So the bottom line is with science you can come up with "facts" to prove anything you want to prove, if there is any substance to it or not. But chances are someone has fudged the data to get it to "prove" whatever point they are attempting to prove.


SUBSTANTIATE OR RETRACT your latest conspiracy theory.


Nothing has changed from the very beginning. Back 4000 years ago, Abraham was called out from the Chandeans who later went on to become a part of Babylon. Their "facts" contained to much error and the "facts" today continue to contain to much error.


I'm going to pretend this is relevent, but that I missed it. Care to explain?


Babylon has not fallen yet, it is still alive. But the day well come, when it well tumble. People will wonder how something that has survived for all these years will come to nothing in a days time.


I'm not going to pretend this one's relevent...


Rev. 18:2
And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird!

Rev. 18:4
And I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.
Poor Johnny; a mouthful of prophecy and nobody to listen.

You wouldn't be related to the Greek prophetess Cassandra, would you?
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Old 8th September 2004, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnR7
The bottom line is the same: Evolution is just a theory, it hasn't been proven. Waving your hands, doing a dance and shaking a baby rattle is not going to change that. The only "fact" about evolution is that it's a word in our dictionary that no two people seem to be able to agree on the definition for. Not even Biologists or "experts" or people who should be able to agree on just what evolution is.
That's funny cuz evolution is universally defined as the changes in gene frequencies over time in a population of organisms. Next?
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Old 8th September 2004, 06:55 PM
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""So, why do you make statements like:

"Evolution is just a theory, it hasn't been proven." "


"Because your post was an attempt to falsify the statement. So that means I have to take the position that the statement is true. It is your statement here that we are working with, not mine."

But, no, I was not attempting to falsify that statement. Just the opposite, in fact. I am stating that the theory of evolution has NOT been proven. The point is that theories are not proven. None of them. Period. So, why would we EXPECT the theory of evolution to be proven. So, to say "Evolution is just a theory, it has not been proven" is a nonsensical statement.

Anyone who talks about "proving" a theory falls into one of two categories:

1. They don't know enough about science to be making comments about it.

2. They know it is nonsense, but are using this soundbite because it sounds good (ie, they are being untruthful).

I never took you as someone who fell into category 1, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

Besides, where is the rule that because someone you disagree with says something, you must necessarily dispute whatever they say?
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