| Origins Theology Forum for the discussion of Creation Science (Young/Old) vs Theistic Evolution. Discussion of Atheistic Evolution should be taken to the Discussion and Debate forums. |
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3rd March 2005, 03:48 PM
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i believe in a young earth 
but i also believe that evolution is a simple god-given process so organisms can better deal with changing environments!
sorry for my bad english - i'm trying my best that you can understand me 
god bless ya all
PS.: don't let us fall into hatred because of this issue - jesus should always be the center! the struggle for the truth of origins only comes in the second place |
3rd March 2005, 03:56 PM
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Reps: 18,396 (power: 33) | | Originally Posted by Xaero PS.: don't let us fall into hatred because of this issue - jesus should always be the center! the struggle for the truth of origins only comes in the second place
Exactly! And your English is fine!
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In matters that are obscure and far beyond our vision, even in such as we may find treated in Holy Scripture, different Interpretations are sometimes possible without prejudice to the faith we have received. - St. Augustine, in his analysis of Genesis.
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3rd March 2005, 04:23 PM
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i will master this with zee help of online dictionarys  |
14th March 2005, 07:14 AM
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I believe in option 9 ...
God is more magnificent and amazing that we can even imagine. For us to even think we know how God created the world is crazy ... it is putting our mind and intelligence above God's intelligence. The same goes for both people who believe in evolution and creation and the spectrum in between.
Do we really think that by understading what scientists say about evolution we can really understand how God has made the world? No, it gives us a glimpse, but does not even begin to tell us all the answers.
What about reading in the bible? Do you really think you understand the mind of God? Then how can reading Genesis let you understand exactly how God created the world. Only God understands it fully.
But to deny science is to pretend that God does not exist ...
because God created science
So if God created science and you pretend that science does not exist, then you are really pretending that part of what God created does not exist, that you think you know better than God. So you cannot ignore the reality of what we see with our own eyes (for example fossil evidence of changing structure of animals), and carbon dating that indicates an old earth, because if you ignore this you are pretending that you know better about how God created the earth ...  |
14th March 2005, 08:41 AM
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Reps: 951 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Xaero thank you!
i will master this with zee help of online dictionarys
I still find it curious that you can in the same post write "thank you" and "zee." If this were spoken communication I would understand. In the written medium it is passing curious. |
3rd May 2005, 04:24 PM
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Reps: 26 (power: 0) | | 7. Theistic Evolutionists (no literal Adam and Eve, but biogenesis) - believe that Man evolved along with the other species (pursuant to God’s plan), but that the initial spark of life was immediately God induced. Some even push this forward to some mass special creation of a variety of "kinds" around the Cambrian period, with all the species evolving from there.
I think I'm a number 7, but I don't see why you have to rule out Adam and Eve being real. Why couldn't they just be the first people with souls (making them human) ? After all, every woman on Earth is descended from one woman (mitochondrial Eve) and every man on Earth from one man (the Y-chromosome Adam). Even though there's no evidence the two knew each other, there's no evidence they didn't either. |
3rd May 2005, 07:21 PM
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Reps: 951 (power: 0) | | | Human origins is the most unimportant aspect of human knowledge and we spend an inordinatel amount of time on it. The laws by which the universe operate function regardless of the popular view of origins and will remain the same regardless of how humans decide to settle the question. |
13th May 2005, 01:10 AM
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Personally I prefer the Gap theory or an approximation to it. I am rather curious as to why others I have spoken to seem fairly allergic to that explanation, I've found in some circles it's a really big issue with some people but I guess that's another kettle of fish.
Anyway, I was passing by and reading some of the discussions here I thought I would mention the obvious, as a general thing about creation, here's a good a place as any, which is simple enough, Christian faith in Jesus is not based upon creation but on the Gospel message which is "Christ and HIM crucified".
If Jesus was crucified and is who he said he is, and is speaking the truth about GOD and Himself, then so must the creation story be inspired by GOD, since Jesus claimed to be before Abraham.
So I would have thought that in any discussion about creation this would be a given assumption, if it is established that Jesus was a real person and spoke the truth, and is 100% reliable, then so is the scripture that spoke about him.
Is creation the most important issue going well I disagree with Stateri, I think creation/human origins is important for many reasons not least of which is that science reduces humanity to little more than biological automatons without a soul (let us eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die?), and creation is a very important theme through scripture as well. Off the cuff, with respect to the gospel message, Jesus said, "If you do not believe me, believe the works I do". Creation is a work of the Trinity and the scripture says, "The heavens declare the Glory of our God". Yes the scripture gives the Godhead of the Trinity the glory for the greatness of the universe.
Paul also draws from this theme when he says:
Rom 1:20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
According to this scripture, denying creation is to deny the creator, and if Jesus "was God and was with God in the beginning" (John 1:1) then denying creation is denying the truth of the Gospel. So I would never dismiss creation/human origins as an unimportant subject but is in fact a key theme to the teachings of scripture.
Therefore the question remains the same whether you believe 1-10 as far as creation is concerned: Was CHRIST really crucified? |
13th May 2005, 01:38 AM
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Reps: 12,567,898,174,147,644 (power: 12,567,898,174,166) | | Originally Posted by enpassant Hello,
Personally I prefer the Gap theory or an approximation to it. I am rather curious as to why others I have spoken to seem fairly allergic to that explanation, I've found in some circles it's a really big issue with some people but I guess that's another kettle of fish.
I haven't paid much attention to gap theory. What I know of it leads me to classify it as a form of young-earth creationism. Yes, I know it has a pre-quel of long ages, but all the important action still falls within the YEC framework. Anyway, I was passing by and reading some of the discussions here I thought I would mention the obvious, as a general thing about creation, here's a good a place as any, which is simple enough, Christian faith in Jesus is not based upon creation but on the Gospel message which is "Christ and HIM crucified".
If Jesus was crucified and is who he said he is, and is speaking the truth about GOD and Himself, then so must the creation story be inspired by GOD, since Jesus claimed to be before Abraham.
I follow the approach of theistic evolution (aka evolutionary creationism). I have no difficulty with this unless you discount evolution as a form of creation. So I would have thought that in any discussion about creation this would be a given assumption, if it is established that Jesus was a real person and spoke the truth, and is 100% reliable, then so is the scripture that spoke about him.
Right. What I would ask though is whether you contend that spiritual truth must have the same criteria as objective factual truth. Must all truth be reduced to literal facts, as in science or can we encounter truth that goes beyond the confines of demonstrable fact? Is creation the most important issue going well I disagree with Stateri, I think creation/human origins is important for many reasons not least of which is that science reduces humanity to little more than biological automatons without a soul (let us eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die?), and creation is a very important theme through scripture as well.
I agree with you as to scripture, but I would say you have mischaracterised science here. Science doesn't "do" anything philosophical or theological. It is a compendium of knowledge about nature. And that is all it is. Science does not reduce humanity to biological automatons. People do. And yes, some of those people are scientists. But some of the people who defend the view that we are not computers made of meat are also scientists.
The fact is, that this is not a scientific argument. Science can only deal with our biology. It cannot deal with our spirituality. So Richard Dawkins will take one view and Glenn Morton a different view on the human soul. Neither is speaking as a scientist on this question, because it is not a scientific question. Off the cuff, with respect to the gospel message, Jesus said, "If you do not believe me, believe the works I do". Creation is a work of the Trinity and the scripture says, "The heavens declare the Glory of our God". Yes the scripture gives the Godhead of the Trinity the glory for the greatness of the universe.
Paul also draws from this theme when he says:
Rom 1:20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
According to this scripture, denying creation is to deny the creator, and if Jesus "was God and was with God in the beginning" (John 1:1) then denying creation is denying the truth of the Gospel. So I would never dismiss creation/human origins as an unimportant subject but is in fact a key theme to the teachings of scripture.
Therefore the question remains the same whether you believe 1-10 as far as creation is concerned: Was CHRIST really crucified?  and
Note that TEs do not reject creation. They only reject a literal reading of the Genesis creation accounts.
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"Either we've got to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy - and then admit that we just don't wanna do it." Steve Colbert |
13th May 2005, 04:34 PM
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Reps: 951 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by gluadys Note that TEs do not reject creation. They only reject a literal reading of the Genesis creation accounts.
Do you know anyone who reads the Genesis account literally? When you find that person ask them on which day of the week did Elohim create water. And if He did not, who did? | | |
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