The Full Spectrum of Christian Belief on Origins - where are you?

ethos · #71 5th February 2005, 11:53 PM

I have to believe that if one calls themselves Christain, they must in some form or another believe in Intelligent Design. Frankly, I believe in natural selection, but not to the point of being an evolutionist. Not only is God the designer of the entire universe, but he is also the designer of all life on this planet and possibly on other planets. This creation did not just happen all by itself, if you believe in God, he certainly must be its author. If you don't believe God designed creation, then who did. If no one did, then why do you believe in God. I for one, believe that my creator God is the author of all things seen and unseen.

statrei · #72 22nd February 2005, 09:18 AM

The most we can say definitively is that an intelligent, eternally existent being created the universe. The fact that Christians continue they can each present such divergent views as truth, while claiming to possess absolute truth is evidence that we don't truly understand that to which we have been called. Instead of having wars about what we know we can never know, like how old the universe is, we should recognize that by studying the universe and all its complexities we are tracing the fingerprints of the Creator and thereby should gain some insight into His/Her character. These insights should then serve as a guide for testing our doctrinal beliefs about this Creator. Sadly, too may beliefs held by Christians do not agree with what nature says about Him/Her, yet we believe them wholeheartedly. To that extent we embarass Him.

ace85 · #73 22nd February 2005, 01:01 PM

I guess I'm a 7. I believe that God created the heavens and the earth, just as it says in the Bible. I also believe the geological and cosmological evidence that says that it was created billions of years ago. I believe that God created plants, animals, and humans. I also accept the geological, biological, and fossil record evidence that suggests that God created through an evolutionary process.

There is no contradiction between God and science. You don't need to take the Genesis creation story literally.

The Bible is not a science book, it is a spiritual book - God's Word - and shows us spiritual truths. I believe that the creation story illustrates God's creation of the universe and earth, God's creation of man, and man's rebellion against God. It doesn't mean that the earth was literally created in one week about 6,000 years ago, that grass came before fish, and that man was really formed from dust.

Robert the Pilegrim · #74 22nd February 2005, 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by Vance

6. Theistic Evolutionists (with a literal Adam and Eve) - [] But they feel that there was a literal Adam and Eve in a literal Garden. Some attribute this Adam and Eve to an instance of special creation, others to election as "representatives", etc. Also believe in biogenesis, not abiogenesis.

7. Theistic Evolutionists (no literal Adam and Eve, but biogenesis) - []but that the initial spark of life was immediately God induced. []

8. Theistic Evolutionists (abiogenesis) - God created everything and established the full system of natural laws upon with the universe and the earth would work. And it did. With life arising at the time and place He had known it would, etc.

I consider just about any mix of the above possible.
I only have two absolute points of intervention:
In the beginning and
When God made Humanity in his image.

Pretty clearly he did not make us randomly, nor do I believe he has a preferred physical form, our physical bodies evolved from a common ancestor with the other primates. At some point he did something. What was it? I don't know, perhaps he "raised" two homo erectus's into homo sapians and called them Adam and Eve, or maybe not.

Theogenesis or abiogenesis?
I dunno.
Does an active act of his infinite will drive the the movement of each molecule of air, or has he set the physical Universe largely on autopilot?
I dunno.

And frankly these aren't the first questions I'm going to ask.

myutmost4him · #75 23rd February 2005, 12:51 AM

If God created evolution then He did a really good job at hiding evidence of it. The deeper I look at the evolutionary "evidence", the less credible it becomes to me. I'm reminded of the scientists that spent lifetimes believing Piltdown Man to be true, well respected scientists of the time and I'm sure well intentioned. Stated evidences of evolution which on the surface seem to show mutations which add information have yet to show anything except a loss of information when looked at reasonably.

As far as I'm concerned, whether the earth is old or not is still open for discussion and discovery but what's amusing to me is how some feel that an omnipotent God is bound by the rules of our interpretation of time and natural laws. He may be able to create the universe and everything in it, hear and answer prayer, conquer death, etc., but when it comes to creation, this can only be possible within certain guidelines we have theorized to be correct interpretations based upon our "good" science and knowledge.

Job 38

The LORD Speaks

1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said:
2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge?

3 Brace yourself like a man;

I will question you,

and you shall answer me.

4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?

Tell me, if you understand.

5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!

Who stretched a measuring line across it?

6 On what were its footings set,

or who laid its cornerstone-

7 while the morning stars sang together

and all the angels [a] shouted for joy?

8 "Who shut up the sea behind doors

when it burst forth from the womb,

9 when I made the clouds its garment

and wrapped it in thick darkness,

10 when I fixed limits for it

and set its doors and bars in place,

11 when I said, 'This far you may come and no farther;

here is where your proud waves halt'?

12 "Have you ever given orders to the morning,

or shown the dawn its place,

13 that it might take the earth by the edges

and shake the wicked out of it?

14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;

its features stand out like those of a garment.

15 The wicked are denied their light,

and their upraised arm is broken.

16 "Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea

or walked in the recesses of the deep?

17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?

Have you seen the gates of the shadow of death [b] ?

18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?

Tell me, if you know all this.

Vance · #76 23rd February 2005, 01:48 AM

Who ever said God was bound by anything? TE's consistently say that God can have created any way He liked, but all the evidence points directly to Him creating through evolution. The only people placing limitations on God are those those YEC's who insist that God MUST have created in a manner consistent with their own, fallible, human interpretation of Scripture.

gluadys · #77 23rd February 2005, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by myutmost4him

I'm reminded of the scientists that spent lifetimes believing Piltdown Man to be true,

Well hardly lifetimes. Piltdown Man was "discovered" in 1912 and proved to be a fraud in 1953. That's 41 years. Ok, 2 working generations, except that most of the second working generation ignored Piltdown Man because new genuine findings made it more and more incompatible with reality.

From a scientific point of view it was a relief to find it was not a genuine fossil.

Matthew777 · #78 26th February 2005, 07:53 PM

I am a Patristic Creaitonist. The "old earth" vs. "young earth" distinction is unnecessary, in my opinion.

May peace be upon thee and with thy spirit.

myutmost4him · #79 27th February 2005, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by gluadys

Well hardly lifetimes. Piltdown Man was "discovered" in 1912 and proved to be a fraud in 1953. That's 41 years. Ok, 2 working generations, except that most of the second working generation ignored Piltdown Man because new genuine findings made it more and more incompatible with reality.

From a scientific point of view it was a relief to find it was not a genuine fossil.

Ok for clarification there were scientists inside and outside the British Museum of Natural History which devoted the total of their careers on the Piltdown Men. If some of them started when they were 20 and spent 40+ years working on Piltdown thet would make them 60+. What's the average lifespan of a man?

Robert the Pilegrim · #80 27th February 2005, 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by myutmost4him

Ok for clarification there were scientists inside and outside the British Museum of Natural History which devoted the total of their careers on the Piltdown Men. If some of them started when they were 20 and spent 40+ years working on Piltdown thet would make them 60+. What's the average lifespan of a man?

Source please.