The Full Spectrum of Christian Belief on Origins - where are you?

See? Taking everything literally gets you into trouble!

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Oh yes totally!!
God could have done it the TE or OEC way!

However this makes the reading of Genesis messy and has negative knock-on effect for theology in my opinion. I want to know why all those Dinosaurs and other animals were dying and suffering before the Fall.

However I do feel certain about a literal Adam and Eve. If you deny them then why not deny a literal Noah or a literal Moses etc etc?

Bonhoffer - you'd be shocked, probably, to know how uncertain I am about the historicity of Noah or Moses. As I've said before, when the book of the law was found in the Temple, I'm more than slightly suspicious that the ink was still wet.

The question I'd pose in response to "what about death before the fall" is "Did God create ecosystems?"

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I take a stand on justice, I take a stand on race
Gonna take me a TV evangelist and punch him in the face
I sing about the hope that’s in me and ask why the poor aren’t fed
But if I don’t tow the party line, it’s be better if I were dead

I’m a liberal backslider I’ve been sliding ‘bout ten years
People ask me how I’m doin’ and I confirm all their fears
I’m swearing like a trooper, and I’m drinking like a bum
I'm a liberal backslider, and it sure is a lot of fun

I'm not shocked knowing your liberalism. However I am relieved and glad for you that you do beleive in a historical Jesus. (Now PLEASE tell me that you do!!) Not only do you beleive in Him but you have put your faith in Him.
Thats all that counts!!

As much as I dislike liberal theology and churches that follow it, liberalism is useful as it could allow sceptics a way to come into a relationship with Jesus. However I dont think total liberalism is good for practicing beleivers. But that is up to you. I dont think you'll ever become a fundy until your in Heaven! Then you'll go "Wow!! Mary Magedline was a real person and not just a symbol of how the biggest sinners can be forgiven."

Understandibly anyone saying they knew for certain would sound arrogant. However what if someone did know for sure?

Christians are accused of being arrogant for saying they know Christianity is true. However as any born-again beleiver will understand we do know for certain because of the conviction of the Holy Spirit etc etc....

However we can always accept they could be right or could be wrong. They miught know for sure, but we dont!

I'm sure all of us will be corrected in some way when we get to heaven and none of us will be fundys/liberals/evangelicals/etc because the terms will be meaningless when we are in the face of God.

[Tangent]

It would be nice if this were so. I understand it is for some fortunate souls, but IME the vast majority of Christians have to work with and through their doubts.

Don't normalise your own experience!

__________________
I take a stand on justice, I take a stand on race
Gonna take me a TV evangelist and punch him in the face
I sing about the hope that’s in me and ask why the poor aren’t fed
But if I don’t tow the party line, it’s be better if I were dead

I’m a liberal backslider I’ve been sliding ‘bout ten years
People ask me how I’m doin’ and I confirm all their fears
I’m swearing like a trooper, and I’m drinking like a bum
I'm a liberal backslider, and it sure is a lot of fun

Death before the Fall is not a problem at all if you see the death resulting from the Fall to be spiritual death. As I have set out elsewhere, I think it MUST be this, regardless of any evidence of pre-existing death, simply because to think of the Fall being the cause of physical death not only conflicts with the text, but it also has serious negative consequences for the value of Christ's redemptive sacrifice.

Another issue (getting to Karl's point) is that the physical death within the natural course of an overall ecosystem is not evil, and thus would still qualify for God seeing it as "good", even as "very good". It is sin that is evil, not physical death. There is no sin in a T Rex killing a stegasaurus. There WAS sin in man killing man, which happened after the Fall.

I am honestly not sure how, when or where God "breathed" upon man, whereupon Man had a soul and knowledge of good and evil, and thus *could* sin. And I am not sure if this transformation was a special event or events, as told in figurative language in Genesis 1 and 2 (which might even be fairly literal in this regard as Herev believes, although I do lean toward allegory here), or whether it was something built in to the process from the beginning and just "happened" at its appointed place and time.

But knowing these things are absolutely and positively unecessary for the Gospel message and salvation. It is interesting, though.

[Further meaningless tangent]

But it might need a time machine

__________________
I take a stand on justice, I take a stand on race
Gonna take me a TV evangelist and punch him in the face
I sing about the hope that’s in me and ask why the poor aren’t fed
But if I don’t tow the party line, it’s be better if I were dead

I’m a liberal backslider I’ve been sliding ‘bout ten years
People ask me how I’m doin’ and I confirm all their fears
I’m swearing like a trooper, and I’m drinking like a bum
I'm a liberal backslider, and it sure is a lot of fun

Yes, true, a triceratops, I should say!

And I should know this, since my five year old son is an expert and would have made the same correction. It is amazing hearing him say stuff like "well, that dinosaur lived during the late Cretaceous . . .".