Just wanted to say hi and welcome you aboard! I'm a recent "convert" also, and here is where I also learned the truth of calvinism. It is, at first, a hard pill to swallow, but I have found so much peace in knowing the truth. And as I learn(from awesome people like cygnusx1 ), it's easier and easier to understand. I just wanted to give you encouragement in your walk and let you know it does get easier!!!
Thanks for your warm welcome. I'm looking forward to that "peace" that you describe. I still have a lot to learn...and a lot of unresolved questions that keep gnawing at me. I think I experienced a little bit of "info overload" for a few days (reading all those great links posted by cygnusx1) so I'm trying to take things a little slower. I just know from personal experience that it wasn't me who did the choosing, it was definitely the irresistable grace of God.
__________________
"He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God." -- Micah 6:8
I just posted this message in another thread in this section, but I'm adding it here in case it gets more traffic this way.
I feel really pulled to write something. I want to start off very, very clearly saying that this post is in the spirit of INQUIRY, NOT attack. I am bemused by some things I have witnessed and I need some advice- precisely because I believe cannot be universally characterisitic of the denomination I discuss. A pastor and some denomination members have told me that some of the issues I've witnessed have roots in theology- hence posting here. I am NOT out to stereotype or be hateful- I'm out to find advice precisely so I can be open-minded and more loving. Maybe some of you can give me some new, positive approaches to think about with regards to Calvinism/Reformed orientation.
My husband was raised Christan Reformed Church, as in Dutch Reformed. To be brief, my experience with the church has been that ethnicity and Calvinism are a huge focus- in comparison to other churches that might be more focused on broad tenets of Christianity. My husband has turned away from the Church (CRC and the whole body of Christ) and believes it is only a sociological institution which people use to re-affirm the legalisms that they are burdened with and judge others by. This pains me, and I believe that perhaps some posters here with knowledge or belonging in the CRC might be able to give me some direction in how to address this?
My in-laws and CRC friends of my husband have often reminded me implicitly and at times explicitly that I am not CRC by background and I don't have understanding of the "true Christianity" that they worship. That is their choice of words, which I include so posters can understand my quandry. For one example (of various)- I made the mistake one day of saying in a joyful positive manner that I believe we have a loving God, as evidenced by the fact that he sent his son to die for us. His mother immediately countered me that "that's fine for evangelism [said with distaste], but our God is foremost one who punishes sin". How can I help or respond to this defensiveness in a way that would appeal to CRC orientations?
It's not just his family... all around him, I see young people who have been raised CRC and who are struggling with identity issues that they will even describe as rooted in the legalisms and inaccessibility of the perceived God they were raised around. Surely this is not the whole picture?
My husband cites the doctrine of election as being something that must be true to any real Christian, since "the CRC is the purest form of Christianity", but that he feels (in an interesting double-bind of belief and un-belief) possibly explains why he doesn't believe. He "believes he isn't chosen to believe". Can you believe it? I can't!
This has left me struggling with Calvinism and the Christian Reformed Church. In fairness, the pastor who married us was excellent, but told me what I am witnessing is widespread in the church and that much time is needed for it to evolve. We went to the church for months before we were married- I was searching for Christ at the time and quite excited by the possibility. I signed up to help out with several things, and tried to start to integrate myself a bit into the church. People would interact with me, but only very functionally.
Please, I really beg someone to help me out here in trying to come to terms with understanding where this all comes from. I know that there must be another side to all of this. Can someone throw some light on this?????? I want to understand and try to grow to meet it the right way- not saying I'll agree, but maybe to give me more hope.
I sympathise with your plight gracefulmouse , and I pray God will lead you.
Many Christians go through a phase where they begin all happy and joyous , then they discover a real hunger for a deeper understanding of what they believe. They read books listen to tapes and get a lot of help this way. BUT , often the head outgrows the heart and a lopsided experienece prevails. The idea is to get good "meat" and apply it , so if you study the Sovereignty of God , you will find if it is applied , a dissapating of the fear of men. But if it is not applied it will become speculative theory.
I have been in Calvinistic Church's where there is a real lack of warmth , and I would strongly recommend you find a Church that is warm , loving and cares about the lost! You can keep your theology wherever you go , just be prepared to avoid pointless disputes and keep God and His Sovereignty close to your heart , it will show! Try visting ten Church's in 2 months and prayerfully ask God to plant you.
Peace Cygnus
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... interpretation is necessary to prevent our being misled by the mere sound of words. How many have formed wrong conceptions from the language used in different verses through their failure to understand its sense. To many it appears impious to place a different meaning upon a term than what appears to be its obvious signification; yet a sufficient warning against this should be found in the case of those who have so fanatically and stubbornly adhered to Christ’s words, "this [unleavened bread] is My body," refusing to allow that it must mean "this represents My body" — as "the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are [i.e. symbolize] the seven churches" (Rev. 1:20). The error of Universalism, based upon indefinite terms being given an unlimited meaning, points further warning. Arminianism errs in the same direction. "That He by the grace of God should taste death for every man"(Heb. 2:9) no more included Cain, Pharaoh and Judas than "every man" is to be understood absolutely in Luke 16:16; Romans 12:3; 1 Corinthians 4:5; and "all men" in 1 Timothy 2:4, 6, is no more to be taken as meaning all without exception than it is in Luke 3:15; John 3:26; Acts 22:15.
A W Pink
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oh,what a rough spot to be in. I'll be praying for you. I'm very new to Calvinism and don't even go to a "reformed" church so I don't think I can give any helpful advice, but I can give an "opinion" from what I read. It's sounds to me as if this church has lost some focus. Or should I say, they've decided to focus on the wrong thing. I'm not sure if I'm right, but they sound "hyper-calvinist", which is (IMO) just as bad as those "hyper-arminians'.
I think cygnus had some good advice. Go find a warm, loving church--even if it's not "reformed"--you can keep your reformed ideology. I personally would much rather be in a non-reformed church that cares for the lost, and the new people, then a reformed church that only seems to care for those that grew up in the church, or grew up reformed.
And we do have a loving God, that's just not His only "side". It seems as if this church has focused too much on his "punishing" side and not enough on His Grace, just as if some arminian churches focus too much on His Grace and not enough on the other aspects of God.
Good luck finding a church. I think your husband definately needs to see some other churches, it sounds like he doesn't realize there are other 'types' of churches out there. Just don't give up on the truths of "calvinism"....
Here is a most wonderful scripture for us all to meditate on ............. can you not see the whole articles of Grace in this word .....it is so clear it is amazing anyone denies it. Faith in God is a WORK , a work of God!
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
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... interpretation is necessary to prevent our being misled by the mere sound of words. How many have formed wrong conceptions from the language used in different verses through their failure to understand its sense. To many it appears impious to place a different meaning upon a term than what appears to be its obvious signification; yet a sufficient warning against this should be found in the case of those who have so fanatically and stubbornly adhered to Christ’s words, "this [unleavened bread] is My body," refusing to allow that it must mean "this represents My body" — as "the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are [i.e. symbolize] the seven churches" (Rev. 1:20). The error of Universalism, based upon indefinite terms being given an unlimited meaning, points further warning. Arminianism errs in the same direction. "That He by the grace of God should taste death for every man"(Heb. 2:9) no more included Cain, Pharaoh and Judas than "every man" is to be understood absolutely in Luke 16:16; Romans 12:3; 1 Corinthians 4:5; and "all men" in 1 Timothy 2:4, 6, is no more to be taken as meaning all without exception than it is in Luke 3:15; John 3:26; Acts 22:15.
A W Pink
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...
This has left me struggling with Calvinism and the Christian Reformed Church. In fairness, the pastor who married us was excellent, but told me what I am witnessing is widespread in the church and that much time is needed for it to evolve. We went to the church for months before we were married- I was searching for Christ at the time and quite excited by the possibility. I signed up to help out with several things, and tried to start to integrate myself a bit into the church. People would interact with me, but only very functionally.
...
{cut for brevity of this post, please read entire post above}
you bring up several important points.
reformed churches have a set of problems.
ethnicity of the CRC aggrevates it, but is not the cause.
the cause, simply put is sin. from self-centeredness as children to the xenophobia of a small ethnic enclave inside a much larger slightly antigonist culture, we fear those different, those outside our group.
you add to this mix the intellectualism, rationalism, of much Reformed theology, plus the regulative principle of worship which often has the reformed looking backwards at music, art, etc in the past several hundred years.
and you get 'the frozen chosen', outwardly cold, unfriendly churches.
but this is a cultural artifact, it is contrary to the Gospel, with its prophetic nature, the strong anti-ethnic=neither Jew nor Greek, its radical nature as in 'always reforming', but most importantly it is contrary to the essential element of the Gospel where we as the body of Jesus are designed to reflect the love of God to others.
Proper preaching, prayful kneeling to ask God for forgiveness of these sins, and striving against our human nature lead to changed people and to changing churches. Dont give up on them, but remind them of the essential elements of the Gospel that are smothered in this type of church.
please dont just leave and go church hoping, for the Gospel is rightly preached there, it is that the people don't believe it enough, or correctly and they need your help to see the errors, you can be a witness to the universality of the Gospel, to the love that God loved us with and that we are to share with the lost and with each other. give them a chance and 'kick for all you're worth' at that reformed shell, it is inappropriate for the children of God.
__________________ i got a warning for flaming.
i find myself unable to participate here as a result.
this being the first of it's kind since i signed into FidoNet 20 years ago.
and am no longer posting to CF.
thanks to everyone who i have encountered over the years i spent here.
Last edited by rmwilliamsll; 27th October 2004 at 08:05 PM.
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... interpretation is necessary to prevent our being misled by the mere sound of words. How many have formed wrong conceptions from the language used in different verses through their failure to understand its sense. To many it appears impious to place a different meaning upon a term than what appears to be its obvious signification; yet a sufficient warning against this should be found in the case of those who have so fanatically and stubbornly adhered to Christ’s words, "this [unleavened bread] is My body," refusing to allow that it must mean "this represents My body" — as "the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are [i.e. symbolize] the seven churches" (Rev. 1:20). The error of Universalism, based upon indefinite terms being given an unlimited meaning, points further warning. Arminianism errs in the same direction. "That He by the grace of God should taste death for every man"(Heb. 2:9) no more included Cain, Pharaoh and Judas than "every man" is to be understood absolutely in Luke 16:16; Romans 12:3; 1 Corinthians 4:5; and "all men" in 1 Timothy 2:4, 6, is no more to be taken as meaning all without exception than it is in Luke 3:15; John 3:26; Acts 22:15.
A W Pink
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This is for those who want to dig a bit deeper........... it is still very readable , notice the distinction between Ultimate cause (God) and Prioximate Cause (man).......... it is pointless blaming God for personal sin , it must be traced back to it's proximate cause ,not it's Ultimate cause , even though God has an Ultimate use for it!
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... interpretation is necessary to prevent our being misled by the mere sound of words. How many have formed wrong conceptions from the language used in different verses through their failure to understand its sense. To many it appears impious to place a different meaning upon a term than what appears to be its obvious signification; yet a sufficient warning against this should be found in the case of those who have so fanatically and stubbornly adhered to Christ’s words, "this [unleavened bread] is My body," refusing to allow that it must mean "this represents My body" — as "the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are [i.e. symbolize] the seven churches" (Rev. 1:20). The error of Universalism, based upon indefinite terms being given an unlimited meaning, points further warning. Arminianism errs in the same direction. "That He by the grace of God should taste death for every man"(Heb. 2:9) no more included Cain, Pharaoh and Judas than "every man" is to be understood absolutely in Luke 16:16; Romans 12:3; 1 Corinthians 4:5; and "all men" in 1 Timothy 2:4, 6, is no more to be taken as meaning all without exception than it is in Luke 3:15; John 3:26; Acts 22:15.
A W Pink
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Thanks for this terrific thread.
Hope for the hopeless....Namely me.
I believe so much as you all but I struggle with some issues.
Nevertheless I believe the Calvinist makes more sense than most beliefs.
I will study this and the links.
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), it's easier and easier to understand. I just wanted to give you encouragement in your walk and let you know it does get easier!!! 
I'm looking forward to that "peace" that you describe. I still have a lot to learn...and a lot of unresolved questions that keep gnawing at me. I think I experienced a little bit of "info overload" for a few days (reading all those great links posted by cygnusx1) so I'm trying to take things a little slower. I just know from personal experience that it wasn't me who did the choosing, it was definitely the irresistable grace of God. 
This pains me, and I believe that perhaps some posters here with knowledge or belonging in the CRC might be able to give me some direction in how to address this?
How can I help or respond to this defensiveness in a way that would appeal to CRC orientations? 
Linear Mode
