Man's Freewill vs. God's Sovereignty

onionring · #1 7th January 2004, 01:55 PM

A statement was posed to me this weekend, through a discussion on freewill.

The statement was that "there is a balance between Man's freewill and God's Sovereignty".

As far as I'm concern, there is no "balance" between freewill and sovereignty. I believe man has total freewill and God is totally sovereign.

Someone explain the 'balance' argument to me, please.

Dad Ernie · #2 7th January 2004, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by onionring

A statement was posed to me this weekend, through a discussion on freewill.

The statement was that "there is a balance between Man's freewill and God's Sovereignty".

As far as I'm concern, there is no "balance" between freewill and sovereignty. I believe man has total freewill and God is totally sovereign.

Someone explain the 'balance' argument to me, please.

A weary man was wandering in a dry and torrid desert when he came upon a most beautiful palace, all in gold, shaded by trees and everything was peacful, plentiful and everyone was rejoicing in the luxury. Over the very large main gate was a sign:

Matt 11:28-29 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Now it was made known to this man, that everyone here came to be refreshed and that sooner or later, when they had become fully refreshed they were to take their cross and follow ONE particular man back out the gate and wheresoever He goeth, the man must also go.

So the day came that the man had been fully rested and the ONE that he was to follow was right there. So the man picked up his cross and began to follow the ONE as he departed through the gate. He was very quite surprised, because as he began to leave, he looked up at the sign that was on the gate and it said:

Matt 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

THAT'S BALANCE.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

orthotomeo · #3 7th January 2004, 09:01 PM

Dear O-ring,

Would you first define your terms, please?

What's your concept of God's sovereignty - what's it look like?

And what does total free will look like?

Is there no point at which they intersect?

Trying to understand,

o.

Dad Ernie · #4 7th January 2004, 09:14 PM

Originally Posted by orthotomeo

Dear O-ring,

Would you first define your terms, please?

What's your concept of God's sovereignty - what's it look like?

And what does total free will look like?

Is there no point at which they intersect?

Trying to understand,

THIS IS ETERNAL LIFE:

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1 John 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

THIS IS FREE WILL:

John 3:15-16 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

EVEN JESUS HAD A FREE WILL OF WHICH HE SUBMITTED TO GOD:

Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Read the books of the "Preacher". There was nothing that he kept from himself, but this was his concusion:

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

SolomonVII · #5 8th January 2004, 02:14 AM

Originally Posted by onionring

A statement was posed to me this weekend, through a discussion on freewill.

The statement was that "there is a balance between Man's freewill and God's Sovereignty".

As far as I'm concern, there is no "balance" between freewill and sovereignty. I believe man has total freewill and God is totally sovereign.

Someone explain the 'balance' argument to me, please.

Because man is not infinite, and God is, the degree of free will any person possesses is not absolute, but contingent on his particular circumstances. God's will, on the other hand, is absolute and cannot be made to depend on the choice that humans make.

The idea of balance, in my view, implies that God response would depend on the behavior of man. However, the sovereignty of the Absoute cannot be contingent on anything. Because God's sphere of action is not temporal but eternal, God only acts according to His own plan and does not react according to the choice of any given individual makes.

On the other hand, man's response to the gift of God's grace is based solely on faith. God does not compel man to choose one way or another, but if man chooses to submit to the way of God, the choices one makes become spirit-led. That a closer relationship with God allows us to more completely be vehicles to carry on God's message and God's good works does not make our choice to do so -or to refuse to do so- any less our own.

Rafael · #6 8th January 2004, 05:52 AM

If there is free will or any choice given man, then it is given by God to accomplish His purpose and will - He knowing the outcome.

Proverbs 16:33 We may throw the dice, but the LORD determines how they fall.

onionring · #7 8th January 2004, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by orthotomeo

Dear O-ring,

Would you first define your terms, please?

What's your concept of God's sovereignty - what's it look like?

And what does total free will look like?

Is there no point at which they intersect?

Trying to understand,

o.

Please first understand that I disagree with the statement posed to me in my OP (Original Post).

Originally Posted by onionring

A statement was posed to me this weekend, through a discussion on freewill.

The statement was that "there is a balance between Man's freewill and God's Sovereignty".

I was simply voicing my view on the matter.

Originally Posted by onionring

As far as I'm concern, there is no "balance" between freewill and sovereignty. I believe man has total freewill and God is totally sovereign.

By sovereign, I mean, rule with total power and authority. And that His "power"/sovereignty is not dependant on anything (to include choices/actions we do). He reigns supreme.

By total free will, I mean, man possess independent control over his life. God does not control the will of man. Free will of man is essential to the unique communion of God and man. And allows for acceptable worship to God. Without freewill, human are simply puppets.

If God is totally sovereign (power unaffected/non-dependent on anything), and man has total freewill (independent control over his choices), then where is the conflict???

Originally Posted by onionring

Someone explain the 'balance' argument to me, please.

The arguing point of the "balance" issue was that man cannot have complete freewill, since in some way it would take away from God's Sovereignty. I cannot see this point. I am asking for people who understand this logic to please explain it further.

johnd · #8 8th January 2004, 09:46 AM

With respect and love for our Calvinist brethren, I must say that they over emphasize the minutia based on a false premise.

1. conceptionalizing the eternal with the temporal
2. disregarding the attributes of God's omniscience

When one realizes that God knows all things past present and future and all the variables (from the choices of those made with the free will he grants within his over all will) and that God is the Master Orchestrator, the old argument over predestination versus free will can be summed up as simply as:

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

johnd · #9 8th January 2004, 09:48 AM

I have learned that when something does not make sense in the Bible or it is hard to understand, to put God in the middle of it and either his attributes or his purposes solves the problem.

onionring · #10 8th January 2004, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by solomon

Because man is not infinite, and God is, the degree of free will any person possesses is not absolute, but contingent on his particular circumstances.

Freewill is dependent on circumstances?

Perhaps you are confusing the ability of freewill with the availability of opportunities? These are to different things. For instances, I my have the talent (ability) to play basketball, yet my "circumstance" may not allow me a recent "opportunity". My lack of opportunity does not mean I now have less talent.

In the same way, just because man is limited in his circumstances, does not mean he has less freewill. Only less opportunities to exact the ability of total freewill.

I understand the whole philosophical debate over "If you have an ability, yet don't use it,....Is it really there?" (i.e.. sound of one hand clapping?; tree falling in the wood with no one to hear,. does it make a sound?) What is the principle resolving issue here? FAITH...and an understanding that what God establishes is not dependant on circumstances of His creations. If God has given us freewill, then we have freewill. Even if we lack the infinite opportunities of God to use it.

Originally Posted by solomon

God's will, on the other hand, is absolute and cannot be made to depend on the choice that humans make.

I agree.

Originally Posted by solomon

The idea of balance, in my view, implies that God response would depend on the behavior of man. However, the sovereignty of the Absoute cannot be contingent on anything. Because God's sphere of action is not temporal but eternal, God only acts according to His own plan and does not react according to the choice of any given individual makes.

On the other hand, man's response to the gift of God's grace is based solely on faith. God does not compel man to choose one way or another, but if man chooses to submit to the way of God, the choices one makes become spirit-led. That a closer relationship with God allows us to more completely be vehicles to carry on God's message and God's good works does not make our choice to do so -or to refuse to do so- any less our own.

Agree. This leads to a discussion of "Holiness"(as some like to call it). Yet, even in holiness, doesn't one still possess total freewill? Though one is spirit-led, one is not "spirit-controlled". Rather in being like-mind, God reveals His will to us. We daily choose to follow His will. Does this sound correct?