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  #11  
Unread 3rd January 2004, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by FreeinChrist
I believe it is important to consider what covenant a person is under in regards to this question.

Under Mosaic Law, unintentional sin committed by God's people could be forgiven by a guilt offering. The once a year atonement sacrifice was also for unintentional sin. However, all the sacrifices done in the Levitical system could not remove sin, and intentional sin - well, I don't see that it was forgiven then.

But consider that Jesus hadn't been born and died for our sins, yet.

If we are born again,in Christ, I believe that unintentional sin is already forgiven. Christ was the atoning sacrifice like the once a year atoning sacrifice. However, Christ's sacrifice was once for all. And it could remove sin, even intentional sins done. That is while the writer of Hebrews keeps mentioning that the sacrifice of Christ was a better sacrifce, based on better promises.
So I don't believe that Thomas Aquinas is contradicting God, necessarily, but is recognizing how great a sacrifice Christ made for us, and that he is aware of the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.
No Doubt. I was hoping someone would bring up the Levitical system. I am not disputing Jesus and him forgiving sins past present and future, but does that mean we are able to become completely sinless, not yet, not here. We can still sin.

And we are still called to lead holy lives, to flee from sin, and when we sin we are responsible for that whether intentional or not. Because Jesus came to earth doesnt mean we throw the OT away as useless, the levitical system may be done with, but it still teaches us who God is.

I dont see how the verse in Lev when it says we are responsible for sin whether known or not could expire? Ya know?
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thats right... Bush won!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Last edited by d0c markus; 3rd January 2004 at 02:49 PM. Reason: mispelling...i do that alot.
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  #12  
Unread 3rd January 2004, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by d0c markus
No Doubt. I was hoping someone would bring up the Levitical system. I am not disputing Jesus and him forgiving sins past present and future, but does that mean we are able to become completely sinless, not yet, not here. We can still sin.
Yep, we sure can.


And we are still called to lead holy lives, to flee from sin, and when we sin we are responsible for that whether intentional or not. Because Jesus came to earth doesnt mean we throw the OT away as useless, the levitical system may be done with, but it still teaches us who God is.
I agree. I have found that studying the Mosaic Law and it's pictures of what was to be very enlightening.


I dont see how the verse in Lev when it says we are responsible for sin whether known or not could expire? Ya know?
I believe we are responsible for unintentional sin, but not under condemnation for it. We will bear the consequences on earth. Like if I unintentional offend someone on this mb and they get hurt, I've lost a possible friend.
When we stand before the judgement seat of Christ, sins committed unintentionally may cost some rewards. I don't know. I just know that we are not under condemnation.
  #13  
Unread 3rd January 2004, 03:14 PM
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me and you are in agreement then 100%
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thats right... Bush won!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Unread 3rd January 2004, 03:31 PM
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When you think about it, when you think you don't know something is wrong, deep inside you really do. God knows our heart. Now, if someone say, spikes your drink for exam-le, and you don't taste the alcohol and drive drunk, you'll stilll be guilty in the law, but I don't think God would view it as sin. I think it's rare for someone to truly not feel that something is wrong. Sometimes I won't do something just because it feels wrong, like I don't play poker or slots and such on the computer even for fun, just because I don't feel right doing it. Now it may not be a sin, and someone else may not have a problem with it, but if I go ahead and do what I feel is wrong, it would be a sin. Even Jesus said of those who crucified Him, they know not what they do.
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  #15  
Unread 3rd January 2004, 03:38 PM
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I agree with the exception of drive drunk, regardless if someone spikes your drink, your gonna know you messed up.

As for playing poker for fun not being a sin, but you having doubts with it see:

RO 14:19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

RO 14:22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23 But the man who has doubts is condemned if he
eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

replace food and eating with poker and we have a close analogy or somethin
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thats right... Bush won!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  #16  
Unread 3rd January 2004, 04:00 PM
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If we sin through ignorance, it is not accounted to us as sin, "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." James 4:17. "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead." Acts 17:30-31.
Jesus Himself fully endorsed such a concept. "Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth." John 9:41. "If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin." John 15:22.
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Unread 3rd January 2004, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by d0c markus
For an Ethics class i had to read some Thomas Aquinas and his theology says that if you dont know its a sin, then your innocent..

but then i was reading and found this verse:

LEV 5:17 "If a person sins and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, even though he does not know it, he is guilty and will be held responsible. 18 He is to bring to the priest as a guilt offering a ram from the flock, one without defect and of the proper value. In this way the priest will make atonement for him for the wrong he has committed unintentionally, and he will be forgiven. 19 It is a guilt offering; he has been guilty of wrongdoing against the LORD."

Compared to Aquinas this is a blaring contradiction, Aquinas wrote alot to say one thing and its plain and simple in the bible.

But anyways whats your take on it, are you innocent if your unknowing?
I noticed the verses you quoted were from Leviticus. Leviticus is full of ceremonial laws that we are not under because of the blood that Jesus shed for us. I think this is where God's mercy comes in HE knows the intents of our hearts. May God keep blessing with his many blessings


  #18  
Unread 3rd January 2004, 04:46 PM
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Let us have a look. If they are not accountible to sin then jesus contradicts the OT.

Originally Posted by 1John5:3
If we sin through ignorance, it is not accounted to us as sin, "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." James 4:17.


James is talking about the sins of slander and boasting see 4:11-16, check out 1 John 3:4 for what sin is. Since The bible does not contradict itself Lev 5:17 stands.

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead." Acts 17:30-31.


There was a period of time during adam and noah when the law had not yet been laid down. Read the CONTEXT start at verse 24 through the end of the chapter. Notice how the context talks about the beggining of the world. This period of time is what God winked at. Lev 5:17 still stands.


Jesus Himself fully endorsed such a concept. "Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth." John 9:41.


One of the points of the gospel message was to recognize that we are sinners, to open our eyes that all have fallen. Look back a couple verses the pharisees say "what are we blind too?" You can no longer use the excuse you didnt know, Jesus said if you were blind you would have no sin, i agree with Jesus, adam didnt know sin until he ate the fruit, his eyes were what?

They were opened (gen 3:7)

Lev 5:17 stands.

The whole chapter deals with blindness both literally and spiritually, spiritual blindness appears harder to fix, the pharisees we to caught up in themselves even though the truth was right in front of them.

"If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin." John 15:22.


Ok, if you read the context of the chapter in V.21 it says "they do not know the one who sent me" Everything you ever need to know about jesus and his coming is in the OT, they had the means to the knowledge, but ignored it, they knew not the father. But now jesus is their and confronts thier sin, there is no cloak to hide under, if jesus had never came to earth then how could they be guilty of hating him, for he never came?

Lev 5:17 still stands.

That took alot of reading, all my commentaies are packed away.. Nonetheless it is fun stuff.

Take Care
Mark
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thats right... Bush won!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  #19  
Unread 3rd January 2004, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by pentecostal girl
I noticed the verses you quoted were from Leviticus. Leviticus is full of ceremonial laws that we are not under because of the blood that Jesus shed for us. I think this is where God's mercy comes in HE knows the intents of our hearts. May God keep blessing with his many blessings
No we are not under those cerimonial requirements, but the law of the OT is now a guideline for us to follow. Jesus fulfilled the sacrifice required to atone for these tresspasses, but are they now void? No.

1JN 3:4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness

The 10 commandments were part of the law. Remember Jesus came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it in his sacrifice. (the atonement required for breakin it)

Many Blessings
Mark
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thats right... Bush won!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  #20  
Unread 3rd January 2004, 05:07 PM
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We must be thankful that we serve a compassionate God who will not hold us responsible for our genuine ignorance. "Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity." Hebrews 5:2. However, if that ignorance has been the result of deliberate negligence of the principles of God, then we cannot expect the mercy of God. "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him." Hebrews 2:3.

Which is correct?
1) We sin because we are sinners
2) We are sinners because we sin
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