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  #31  
Unread 11th August 2014, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Nanopants View Post
Alright then, aside from the loose collection of morally charged words, in a nutshell, what is the situation? I'm not going to sit through hours worth of word sorting so can you do me a favor and please state it briefly and with precision?
Aside from the fact that didn't do what was noted in the OP and actually deal with the videos that discussed the situation, one needs to go back - pay attention to what was said - and then comment. O Thus far, it's evident you again avoided the situation before charging in to speak on it - and if you are not going to do that basic as others did before jumping in, then one can respectfully get over it.

There are other threads for others to deal with popcorn answers/theology - this is not one of them. No one is going to do your homework for you nor spend hours worth of addressing false scenarios because people can't do the simple things with reading when others have already done otherwise/honored the OP.
Again with the loose connections...

What does this subject have to do with slavery?
More of the same with the avoidance of the issue - as it concerns where slavery was addressed by other Christians who noted the lack of addressing that some Christians did and the ways other Christians justified the system as "necessary" - in the same way people justify the World Cup (as you did) and ignore where death and murder occurred within it on an extensive state (alongside destroying people's homes/leaving them without anywhere to go and imprisonment). That's a human rights issue and violations - but if one cannot get that basic, then one doesn't really get it.
How do you know they were intentionally harming others? Brevity would be appreciated here.
Already explained - addressing the issue rather than deflected would be appropriate here, as well as dealing with what was already said here.
And your response is to do what other than take it out on other Christians? I don't see people here ignoring the man on the side of the road. What I do see are average Christians being accused of supporting murder, for simply enjoying sports. This was perhaps not the best example to use to justify doing something comparatively similar.
Ad hominem does nothing to address the issue. As I said plainly in the OP, I grew up playing sports and love sports. The fact that I actually stated that and you came back with the retort you did shows you didn't really read - and thus, you don't understand the topic. Moreover, I already said that sports are a territory that can be both good and evil depending on how you approach it - as said plainly in #2 and #5. This concept was well understood when it came to the sport of soccer and the way it was greatly corrupted in the WWII era/prior, with others in that time who loved sports loving the game enough to not support the foolishness or ignore the Politics of Football in Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany . For a basic review, one can examine this wonderful/ perceptive documentary from 2003 which explores the complex relationship between football (soccer) and the three main fascist dictatorships of the 1930s: Italy, Germany and Spain. Also, for more, one can go to Fascism and Football: How Italy won the 1934 and 1938 World Cup - Outside of the Boot.

It is the same with FIFA - and arguing past that is akin to one claiming that speaking against the organization of the KKK/the evils they did in the name of Christ is a matter of "pressuring" Christians wrongly because of focusing on their use of crosses and then saying "So are crosses a bad thing?! I question your grasp of the issue" ...it's silly.

Seeing where others who enjoy sports noted the same with it being a problem and it's a argument via emotion to claim that others saying "The World Cup is a problem" are taking it out on other Christians. If you feel no guilt over others who were murdered or who had their homes destroyed, then that's your choice - but avoiding addressing the matter of the corruption in soccer and our entertainment-focused society that promotes a culture of silence on those matters will always be problematic.

Others who read the OP earlier understood the point and I suggest you learn to do so as well - for it was already stated where the OP was not focused on others simply enjoying sports. It's a falsehood to say otherwise and it will be called out as such every time you insist on claiming it when it was never even said - it's one thing for someone to not read and make a comment based on ignorance of what was said...but to actively promote more of the same after it was addressed is another problem.

So are you starting to get it yet? Blessed are the merciful.
And as said before, "Blessed are the merciful" had a context that was never divorced from speaking out against corruption or social issues. Hopefully you learn to get that simple point since being merciful was not the same as ignoring issues. The ministry of Jesus was always edgy and slightly counter-cultural and this is nowhere more apparent than when Jesus clears out the market in the Temple - twice (the first time being John 2) when it came to financial abuses of others




[center]



“And who is my neighbor?”
Jesus already noted it - and where others have already been oppressed (as with the families in the World Cup who were negatively impacted), they need to be taken care of. Avoiding that is not helping neighbors..
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  #32  
Unread 11th August 2014, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by LiberalAnglicanCatholic View Post
Sport is a landmine really when it comes to theology cause if you look at it, it condenses both the best and the worst in our daily lives and glorifies it. It in reality is just another way, with a lot less bloodshed,in a sense, of conducting war on different groups. Look at any war or any theological stand from the surface and you could see it. Allies vs Nazis, the English monarchy vs the French Monarchy, Catholic vs Protestant.

We overlook the abuses of sport at our peril at times and then when we look back on it we go. "well why didn't anyone do anything?" but, the sad fact to me at least is this and it comes down to the original quote in Latin that kind of best explains humanity's reactions to events like this:

"iam pridem, ex quo suffragia nulli / uendimus, effudit curas; nam qui dabat olim / imperium, fasces, legiones, omnia, nunc se / continet atque duas tantum res anxius optat, / panem et circenses"

Already long ago, from when we sold our vote to no man, the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a time handed out military command, high civil office, legions everything, now restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things: bread and circuses.
It's unfortunate when the dynamics of laziness can tend to create an apathy that demands for others to tell them what the problems are before they even choose to keep their eyes open when its right in their face - and as you wisely noted, when we're more focused on being entertained rather than actually doing what's right, it's no surprise to see all the craziness that occurs.
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  #33  
Unread 11th August 2014, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Gxg (G) View Post
Aside from the fact that didn't do what was noted in the OP and actually deal with the videos that discussed the situation, one needs to go back - pay attention to what was said - and then comment. O Thus far, it's evident you again avoided the situation before charging in to speak on it - and if you are not going to do that basic as others did before jumping in, then one can respectfully get over it.
How can I be avoiding the situation when I clearly requested clarification? I thought you were not in favor of ad hominems, which, btw, is only a fallacy when an attack of character is used in place of a valid argument.

There are other threads for others to deal with popcorn answers/theology - this is not one of them. No one is going to do your homework for you nor spend hours worth of addressing false scenarios because people can't do the simple things with reading when others have already done otherwise/honored the OP.
Then I will assume that the word salads are nothing very meaningful.

More of the same with the avoidance of the issue - as it concerns where slavery was addressed by other Christians who noted the lack of addressing that some Christians did and the ways other Christians justified the system as "necessary" - in the same way people justify the World Cup (as you did) and ignore where death and murder occurred within it on an extensive state (alongside destroying people's homes/leaving them without anywhere to go and imprisonment).
Quotes or it never happened. If you were to ask me, and to pay attention to what I have stated, I would say using metaphor that burning down the house is not the right solution for solving a rat problem in the cellar. That is not avoidance. Further I'll add that accusing the residents of supporting the rat problem, for simply taking up residence, would be a fallacious and false accusation.

That's a human rights issue and violations - but if one cannot get that basic, then one doesn't really get it.
Already explained - addressing the issue rather than deflected would be appropriate here, as well as dealing with what was already said here. Ad hominem does nothing to address the issue. As I said plainly in the OP, I grew up playing sports and love sports. The fact that I actually stated that and you came back with the retort you did shows you didn't really read - and thus, you don't understand the topic. Moreover, I already said that sports are a territory that can be both good and evil depending on how you approach it - as said plainly in #2 and #5. This concept was well understood when it came to the sport of soccer and the way it was greatly corrupted in the WWII era/prior, with others in that time who loved sports loving the game enough to not support the foolishness or ignore the Politics of Football in Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany . For a basic review, one can examine this wonderful/ perceptive documentary from 2003 which explores the complex relationship between football (soccer) and the three main fascist dictatorships of the 1930s: Italy, Germany and Spain. Also, for more, one can go to Fascism and Football: How Italy won the 1934 and 1938 World Cup - Outside of the Boot.
Disregarded.

It is the same with FIFA - and arguing past that is akin to one claiming that speaking against the organization of the KKK/the evils they did in the name of Christ is a matter of "pressuring" Christians wrongly because of focusing on their use of crosses and then saying "So are crosses a bad thing?! I question your grasp of the issue" ...it's silly.
This is why I asked for a precise statement of the problem you want to say FIFA, or whomever you want to hit with your "supporting evil" spray, is responsible for. So far all I have is: people are poor, people are upset, people were murdered (but by who, I do not know), people are angry and demonstrating, people were forcibly removed from their homes (again, by who and why, I do not know), slavery has occurred, pedophilia exists, and that Christians are supporting all of this through a desire for entertainment through the World Cup.

I do not agree.

Seeing where others who enjoy sports noted the same with it being a problem and it's a argument via emotion to claim that others saying "The World Cup is a problem" are taking it out on other Christians.
I did not say that there is no problem.

If you feel no guilt over others who were murdered or who had their homes destroyed, then that's your choice - but avoiding addressing the matter of the corruption in soccer and our entertainment-focused society that promotes a culture of silence on those matters will always be problematic.
I do not personally feel guilty because 1) I didn't watch the World Cup, 2) I'm not even a soccer fan, and 3) because I am not easily swayed.

If a murder occurs in Chicago, I don't think anyone here is going to be up in arms if it's reported in the newspaper. This may not be the case if the blame is assigned to Chicago Cubs fans at large.

Others who read the OP earlier understood the point and I suggest you learn to do so as well - for it was already stated where the OP was not focused on others simply enjoying sports. It's a falsehood to say otherwise and it will be called out as such every time you insist on claiming it when it was never even said - it's one thing for someone to not read and make a comment based on ignorance of what was said...but to actively promote more of the same after it was addressed is another problem.
I don't know what you're even talking about.

And as said before, "Blessed are the merciful" had a context that was never divorced from speaking out against corruption or social issues. Hopefully you learn to get that simple point since being merciful was not the same as ignoring issues
Then I appreciate your consent.

Jesus already noted it - and where others have already been oppressed (as with the families in the World Cup who were negatively impacted), they need to be taken care of. Avoiding that is not helping neighbors..
Who is avoiding that and how should it be approached?
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  #34  
Unread 11th August 2014, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Nanopants View Post
How can I be avoiding the situation when I clearly requested clarification? I thought you were not in favor of ad hominems, which, btw, is only a fallacy when an attack of character is used in place of a valid argument.
As long as one repeats the same mantras which were never advocated in the original post - the issue of responding with false scenarios - one has no business asking for clarification. You already noted where you didn't check out the videos - and even outside of the videos, it was noted directly what the issue was. Others noted it as well - and thus, till you can get the issue addressed, it'll be ignored.

If you refuse to actually deal with the topic and thus take it OFF-topic further, it'll be reported since it is against the rules and rude. Simple as that



Originally Posted by Nanopants View Post
How can I be avoiding the situation when I clearly requested clarification? I thought you were not in favor of ad hominems, which, btw, is only a fallacy when an attack of character is used in place of a valid argument.
As long as one repeats the same mantras which were never advocated in the original post - the issue of responding with false scenarios - one has no business asking for clarification. You already noted where you didn't check out the videos - and even outside of the videos, it was noted directly what the issue was. Others noted it as well - and thus, till you can get the issue addressed, it'll be ignored.

If you refuse to actually deal with the topic and thus take it OFF-topic further, it'll be reported since it is against the rules and rude. Simple as that.

Originally Posted by Nanopants View Post
How can I be avoiding the situation when I clearly requested clarification? I thought you were not in favor of ad hominems, which, btw, is only a fallacy when an attack of character is used in place of a valid argument.
As long as one repeats the same mantras which were never advocated in the original post - the issue of responding with false scenarios - one has no business asking for clarification. You already noted where you didn't check out the videos - and even outside of the videos, it was noted directly what the issue was. Others noted it as well - and thus, till you can get the issue addressed, it'll be ignored. As it is, ad-hominem already occurred with the silliness of claiming others were "taking it out on Christians" when it came to discussing the issue of violence/gentrification in the World Cup and others claiming Christ who condoned it.

That said, this is the last and only time I'm going to note plainly where one can actually go back/investigate the videos that the OP Issue dealt with. If one does not wish to address that, then it is asked one leave the thread instead of derailing it with arguments not based on what was noted. Moreover, If you refuse to actually deal with the topic and thus take it OFF-topic further, it'll be reported since it is against the rules and rude. Simple as that

Then I will assume that the word salads are nothing very meaningful.
Inconsequential to the OP - but again, it has been noted where one did not deal with the issue.
Quotes or it never happened.
Inconsequential as it is when others in differing discussions were talking to others and people had enough wisdom to keep up with it...and others demanding quotes were ignored since their refusal to read what was said is not the same as evidence of what actually happened. There was already reference to the issue as noted in #1 (as well as footnotes on showing where to go).

What was noted before:
Originally Posted by Gxg (G) View Post
eeveryone saw what occurred with the recent World Cup 2014 recently. Many kept up with it - including others in my family (with my extended family even going to Brazil). Being a Sports Fan, I used to think nothing of it , till I became aware of how much corruption occurred with the event and that not many are aware of it. For reference:
... it's not a good thing when violence and entertainment go together....and thankful for others reporting on this before football went down. I'm thankful for what one of my cousins shared with me on the issue - as seen in the documentary entitled "The Price of the World Cup" . It was shocking seeing how around 200,000 people were forcibly removed from their homes because of World Cup related constructions to make the city seem more beautiful. And many - especially the elderly and youth - were killed by police forces on the streets


..there was a book on the matter that really brought the issue home - entitled Brazil's Dance with the Devil: The World Cup, the Olympics, and the Fight for Democracy (more in Brazil 2014: World Cup where politics and social media invaded the pitch | Football | The Guardian and Brazil€™s Dance with the Devil: Dave Zirin on the People€™s Revolt Challenging 2014 World Cup | Democracy Now!). He and others have done a lot keeping up with the massive protests occurring with the World Cup for some time now..

It's hard to ignore the protests which occurred as if they do not mean anything:

And in response, your original words on the matter:
Originally Posted by Nanopants View Post
I didn't have time to watch the full videos, but I've been around long enough to have a rough idea of where this is going.
Despite what was said when one noted that the OP was centered (in large part) on the actual documentary on the issue, there was little point speaking when one didn't even address the facts...each and every issue dealt with which you predictably brought up in opposition as if it was not noted.
I would say using metaphor that burning down the house is not the right solution for solving a rat problem in the cellar. That is not avoidance. Further I'll add that accusing the residents of supporting the rat problem, for simply taking up residence, would be a fallacious and false accusation.
This is further demonstration as to why it is evident where you have failed to actually deal with what others have said in context and pay attention. For no one said that one had to burn down the house (your words/strawman) when it came to noting where others needed to boycott organizations that are abusing others blantantly. Also, if bent on using the Rat analogy, no one is advocating abuse for residents because of rats in the basement. What is a problem is others choosing to FEED the rats (i.e. leaving cheese in the rooms, not cleaning up or reporting it if seeing one, etc.) and avoid taking responsibility since they are just concerned with the residence.

Disregarded.
Avoiding the issue
This is why I asked for a precise statement of the problem you want to say FIFA, or whomever you want to hit with your "supporting evil" spray, is responsible for. So far all I have is: people are poor, people are upset, people were murdered (but by who, I do not know), people are angry and demonstrating, people were forcibly removed from their homes (again, by who and why, I do not know), slavery has occurred, pedophilia exists, and that Christians are supporting all of this through a desire for entertainment through the World Cup.
And as said before, when you choose to make up things as you go along, there's no real need to go along with it

It was never a matter of saying "people are poor" - as that was never stated. To claim such was noted is a falsehood. The same goes for saying it was not stated who was murdering others, as that was noted as well (just as it was noted who removing others from their home ) - both of which are foolish since the bottom line is that FIFA was noted to be funding both cases of gentrification and murder - and again, based on your lack of actually reading the information, one is again making false scenarios.

The videos (which you did not watch) addressed the matter of how to go about that process and what the issues were...as well as what others have done in going about the matter - from boycotting FIFA as other former FIFA Workers/people in Brazil have done (just as it was with Boycotts of the Buses in the South during Jim Crow) to raising awareness of the evils they have done in destroying homes by the construction crews hired by FIFA ...to contacting local senators/those in congress with regards to creating pressures on the business contacts with FIFA that the U.S has so as to make it where they cannot go forward if continuining with the pattern they have had over the year....and of course, the bottom line reality of being a voice for others who have been harmed by the murders done by police who were hired to clear out areas where others live to make room for the stadiums FIFA uses. For reference on those practically addressing the issues and spelling out what the problems are









What is being noted specifically as an issue is when revenue is occurring through unjust means in an immense sense (and with FULL knowledge whenever others participate ) and the goal is our entertainment. As it concrerns FIFA this has also been very present with those impacted by what has gone down[/url] - as evidenced by the worker strikes ..more discussed in Brazilian Workers Strike and Protest Runup to World Cup and them asking for support rather than avoidance for the sake of the game - and to be clear, these people protesting are also soccer fans who have noted where FIFA had multiple documented cases for the past couple of years where others got harmed.
I did not say that there is no problem.
What was noted was others having lofty expectations and that one didn't want to dilute what Christ did in changes in other times - in addition to defending the system with the "Rat in the basement" analogy of how it'd be wrong to cut off huge revenues for the sake of addressing corrupt activity. The issue of how extensive the corruption was in FIFA and widely-impacting was minimized and the actions defended in the same manner as others defended slavery. It was also assumed people were demonizing soccer - but that's not the point of the OP. In your words:
Originally Posted by Nanopants View Post
To cut off huge venues like this for the sake of some corrupt activity that feeds off of it would be like burning down a house because there are rats in the basement, or like destroying the organs of a patient to remove a tumor. Fixing the real problems is so much more difficult than indignation alone can handle, and demoralizing a perfectly innocent activity and its participants because someone, somewhere is doing something wrong, doesn't serve anyone but ourselves.
Originally Posted by Nanopants View Post
Societies do change though, and considering the bloody murder that used to occupy stadiums like these, or Europe's long history of violent revolution carried out by common folk fighting for survival, I'd not want to be diluting the victories that Christ has won for simply not measuring up to lofty expectations.
If one chooses to defend what FIFA does and what it advocated when it came to soccer, one doesn't value the people who were harmed. One cannot enjoy soccer when it is being used to harm others.
I do not personally feel guilty because 1) I didn't watch the World Cup, 2) I'm not even a soccer fan, and 3) because I am not easily swayed.
If a murder occurs in Chicago, I don't think anyone here is going to be up in arms if it's reported in the newspaper.
If one didn't watch the World Cup, one has no business being in the thread since it was dedicated to those who love the World Cup - both those loving it for what it used to be (as well as loving it for the soccer involved/unity) and those loving it while ignoring the corruption that happens in it. If one didn't even keep up with the World Cup, one has no business trying to speak on the matter to others as to why there are no issues - and it doesn't matter whether one feels guilty or not when others have been murdered by an institution. I don't have any investment in things such as boxing - and I don't feel guilty when a boxer dies. However, when I hear and see where the boxer was murdered by those intentionally funneling illegal finances into the industry and bribing others off, it is a problem if I essentially say "Whatever - it's not my issue and I don't box."

People have been bothered throughout the South when hearing of murders of others in Chicago.
I don't know what you're even talking about.
There were several things where it was evident that there was a lack of understanding ton the matter - but again, if that cannot be understood even after explaining, then that's a problem,.



Then I appreciate your consent.
OK

Who is avoiding that and how should it be approached?
Already noted - as you avoided it earlier. But again, we're done so long as the avoidance occurs.
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Last edited by Gxg (G); 12th August 2014 at 12:00 AM.
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Unread 12th August 2014, 12:12 AM
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Ultimately what it boils down to is that the thread title assumes that Christians have supported evil through sports culture. I responded to the question in a clear, direct and reasonable manner, but it has become clear to me that you have no intent of having a fair, reasonable conversation on the economics or morality of the situation, aside from some kind of media/propaganda war. So I'll bow out unless you have a change of mind.

And if people really were wrongfully harmed for the sake of profit surrounding the 2014 World Cup, it's too bad that in this thread they are not being fairly represented.
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Unread 12th August 2014, 02:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Nanopants View Post
Ultimately what it boils down to is that the thread title assumes that Christians have supported evil through sports culture.
Incorrect (again) - and as said before, what it boils down to when going past what was actually said is a willfulness in promoting a falsehood based on what has not been said. Had one chosen to read rather than speculate, one would realize the bottom line fact that the OP as was stated, word for word, was never about condemning sports culture. For sports are a territory that can be both good and evil depending on how you approach it - as said plainly in #2 and #5. This concept was well understood when it came to the sport of soccer and the way it was greatly corrupted in the WWII era/prior, with others in that time who loved sports loving the game enough to not support the foolishness or ignore the Politics of Football in Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany (as one can examine this wonderful/ perceptive documentary from 2003 which explores the complex relationship between football (soccer) and the three main fascist dictatorships of the 1930s: Italy, Germany and Spain - and for others, one can see Fascism and Football: How Italy won the 1934 and 1938 World Cup - Outside of the Boot).

This dynamic of sports being used for corruption has been present in regards to the World Cup when it comes to the many lives that have been damaged by it and the OP was always focused on addressing that - specifically for those who actually loved the sport and know what it was meant to be used for.

So long as that simple reality is left out, there's no escaping where it's clear one went into the thread speaking before actually listening on what the issues were about.

I responded to the question in a clear, direct and reasonable manner, but it has become clear to me that you have no intent of having a fair, reasonable conversation on the economics or morality of the situation, aside from some kind of media/propaganda war. So I'll bow out unless you have a change of mind.
Incorrect - as responding in speculation on what something is about rather than addressing the issue is never reasonable - nor is being opinionated the same as dealing with the facts. The videos in the OP that addressed the issue directly were avoided before even choosing to speak and that will never be dealing with the subject properly.

There's no need for drama on the matter since you never tackled what the economic situation was - nor did you actually acknowledge what actually happened with the gentrification/murders and other morality problems which protesters and social activists in Brazil have been noting. Claiming a "media/propaganda war" is a logical fallacy of Appeal to ridicule and is inconsequential when it comes to addressing what happened in FIFA with the homes destroyed and what journalists/reporters and everyday citizens noted on the issue there. If one is unable to actually address the information as it is, indeed, it's best to bow out until one is ready to actually handle things for what they are and remain focused.

And if people really were wrongfully harmed for the sake of profit surrounding the 2014 World Cup, it's too bad that in this thread they are not being fairly represented.
Unless people in their situations there were not noted or their words not placed up, it is another falsehood promoted (and another attempt in appeals to ridicule - as well as appeals to emotion) that are inconsequential. The video documentation as well as direct interviews with those harmed have already been placed up in the thread - avoided by yourself - and they are not justifying the system of FIFA, regardless of their love for soccer.

Of course, only one person thus far (yourself) has said that the FIFA organization provides jobs for others and thus it is not something that needs to be removed
- despite what others have said who were impacted by the event down in Brazil. That will never suffice as being anything close to real concern for the people down there being fairly represented - and it's too bad one was focused more so on their own opinions than actually listening to what they already said.

But others have been represented on the matter - and what matters is whether or not we value them enough to actually deal with what they have said:





Moving on..
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Unread 12th August 2014, 02:45 AM
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Originally Posted by LiberalAnglicanCatholic View Post
Sport is a landmine really when it comes to theology cause if you look at it, it condenses both the best and the worst in our daily lives and glorifies it. It in reality is just another way, with a lot less bloodshed,in a sense, of conducting war on different groups. Look at any war or any theological stand from the surface and you could see it. Allies vs Nazis, the English monarchy vs the French Monarchy, Catholic vs Protestant.

We overlook the abuses of sport at our peril at times and then when we look back on it we go. "well why didn't anyone do anything?" but, the sad fact to me at least is this and it comes down to the original quote in Latin that kind of best explains humanity's reactions to events like this:

"iam pridem, ex quo suffragia nulli / uendimus, effudit curas; nam qui dabat olim / imperium, fasces, legiones, omnia, nunc se / continet atque duas tantum res anxius optat, / panem et circenses"

Already long ago, from when we sold our vote to no man, the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a time handed out military command, high civil office, legions everything, now restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things: bread and circuses.
There was actually an excellent presentation on the matter of theology and sports intersecting - as seen here:




If you have any thoughts, what would be your view on how to approach the issue of sports and our theology in a manner that could address it as best as possible? I agree with you that we've sacrificed much for the sake of bread and circuses - but if/when people seem to have nothing else to replace that or not knowing how to go about things, it can be difficult.

And when it comes to economic factors like greed impacting so much, it can be tricky




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Last edited by Gxg (G); 12th August 2014 at 03:04 AM.
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