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  #21  
Old 25th June 2014, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Cearbhall View Post
Well, basically, the RCC is the original church, and everything else broke off of it, as I'm sure you know. The Catholic Church has become a bit more PC about the wording since Vatican II, but they essentially view you as heretics who have left Paul's Church and need to rejoin the fold, which is accurate from a historical standpoint.

What fun.
RCC isn't the original church.
The orginal church started with the disciples, the 500+ people who received the Holy Spirit, Apostle Paul and the alike.
They should stop trying to capitalize Christianity if that's the case.

Originally Posted by Lord Of The Forest View Post
The intercession of the saints is really like me asking you to pray for me.


Highly contested.


Unlikely. Veneration of Mary can be found in some of the very early Church Fathers.

But is it really in the scripture????
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  #22  
Old 25th June 2014, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Lord Of The Forest View Post
The intercession of the saints is really like me asking you to pray for me.


Highly contested.


Unlikely. Veneration of Mary can be found in some of the very early Church Fathers.
It's different. You can ask me to pray for you and I can hear you (or read your words). It is one man speaking to another. Millions of people praying to one saint (or Mary) is completely different. It's assuming that one person can hear the prayers of millions at once and interpret them all and be able to speak them all to God. God is already in us, so why take that unnecessary step? It doesn't get them answered quicker or hold more weight. They are no different than me. I couldn't hear, much less fathom, hearing so many prayers at once.

It's almost as if we elevate them to the level of God's omnipotence. But that's only God who is able to do that.

As for the thing about Mary being highly contested...of course it is! Catholics want to believe it so much. The only thing they have told me to contest it is when the bible mentions Jesus' brothers and sister (or when James calls himself Christ's brother) that the Jews didn't have a word for nephew or cousin, etc, in the Hebrew language, so it could easily fit.

But the New Testament wasn't translated from Hebrew. It was translated from Greek and they DO distinguish siblings from non-siblings. Like we know Elizabeth was a relative of Mary. Not her sister, but an aunt? Cousin? I don't remember off hand, but we know John the Baptist and Jesus are cousins.
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  #23  
Old 25th June 2014, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Jupiter Drops View Post
RCC isn't the original church.
The orginal church started with the disciples, the 500+ people who received the Holy Spirit, Apostle Paul and the alike.
They should stop trying to capitalize Christianity if that's the case.




But is it really in the scripture????
yes, I don't the Catholic church as always claimed to be the original church, but I do not agree. The original church wasn't Catholic. It didn't become that way until many hundreds of years later when the church was Romanized
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  #24  
Old 25th June 2014, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Saucy View Post
That's not the same example. Moses was a pastor of sorts leading his flock. God spoke to him to give him and his people direction. It's different now. We have the Holy Spirit living in us and that gap has been filled by Christ. It wasn't back then. We don't need Mary as any kind of interpreter or special connection to God.
While devotion to Mary plays a huge role in the Catholic Church, I'm not sure it's required.
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  #25  
Old 25th June 2014, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Jupiter Drops View Post
RCC isn't the original church.
The orginal church started with the disciples, the 500+ people who received the Holy Spirit, Apostle Paul and the alike.
That's the same thing, historically. The fracturing didn't even start until 1054, which is impressive, but I suppose people had bigger problems to deal with.
Originally Posted by Saucy View Post
The original church wasn't Catholic. It didn't become that way until many hundreds of years later when the church was Romanized
Catholic literally just means "universal." The word was used quite early.
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  #26  
Old 25th June 2014, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Saucy View Post
But ask yourselves why we're separate. Why did the Protestant movement begin? Maybe because corrupt Catholic leaders were suppressing, even murdering those who didn't accept their very definitions...that popes ruled as kings and thought they had supreme authority to do things their way. When has the Catholic church tried to apologize for what they did? They killed more people than Hitler, yet when the pope tries to talk about peace, he would rather invite Muslims and Jews to the Vatican instead of trying to repair with their own Christian brothers and sisters.

I don't see how any of this was cause by anything other than people standing up to the church and their self-described ideas of authority and going against what is in the bible.
there have been mistakes made by members of the Catholic Church
but look at the Old Testament, there were evil kings of Israel, people did not just say "well Ahab is an evil king, lets form our own new tribe of Israel"

so while the mistakes were really bad, there are better ways then schism and the creation of sects and division to deal with such things.

the Pope has met with Protestant ministers, I think there was a Lutheran Bishop from Jordan in the Middle East prayer service, he even some American Protestants recently along with Charismatic leaders both Catholic and Protestant
Pope Francis uses smartphone video to urge Christian unity | Religion News Service

Pastor Joel Osteen, Mormon Senator, Other US Leaders Meet With Pope Francis in Rome (VIDEO)

as for "killing more people then hitler" I am not sure that is the most honest way to describe things
are we talking about all wars caused by Catholic countries? just the crusades? the crusades had secular and religious motivations
are we talking about the Inquisition in Spain?

Hitler killed 11 million people in about a decade in the Holocaust, the Spanish Inquisition had a few thousand people sentenced to death after a trial in 400 years. That is like 7 people a year, Texas executes more people then that a year...
so the Hitler analogy does not reflect reality, just trying to stir up emotions
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  #27  
Old 25th June 2014, 12:42 AM
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fast thread is fast
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  #28  
Old 25th June 2014, 12:42 AM
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that's the difference. To accept a pope as basically being Christ on earth and have the authority of Christ, to consider them holy, yet they have mostly been corrupt, why would you be part of an organization? How can you possibly know that some of the religious things you hold dear weren't created by evil men?

Like purgatory...totally NOT a biblical concept, but hey, if you pay the church a certain amount of money, they will pray someone out of purgatory. EVIL money making scheme!
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  #29  
Old 25th June 2014, 12:47 AM
I'm not afraid anymore

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Originally Posted by Cearbhall View Post
That's the same thing, historically. The fracturing didn't even start until 1054, which is impressive, but I suppose people had bigger problems to deal with.
Arguable, but the Catholic church that we know today isn't the same as the ones back then.
The RCC didn't come into the full developed picture around 2nd to 3rd century.
Jesus was crucified in the 1st century, and that's about the time when the early Christian churches started.
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  #30  
Old 25th June 2014, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Jupiter Drops View Post
But is it really in the scripture????
Naturally.

Originally Posted by Saucy View Post
Originally Posted by Lord Of The Forest View Post
The intercession of the saints is really like me asking you to pray for me.
It's different. You can ask me to pray for you and I can hear you (or read your words). It is one man speaking to another. Millions of people praying to one saint (or Mary) is completely different. It's assuming that one person can hear the prayers of millions at once and interpret them all and be able to speak them all to God. God is already in us, so why take that unnecessary step? It doesn't get them answered quicker or hold more weight. They are no different than me. I couldn't hear, much less fathom, hearing so many prayers at once.

It's almost as if we elevate them to the level of God's omnipotence. But that's only God who is able to do that.
Hebrews 12:1-2 -- Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.


Originally Posted by Saucy View Post
Originally Posted by Lord Of The Forest View Post
Highly contested.
As for the thing about Mary being highly contested...of course it is! Catholics want to believe it so much. The only thing they have told me to contest it is when the bible mentions Jesus' brothers and sister (or when James calls himself Christ's brother) that the Jews didn't have a word for nephew or cousin, etc, in the Hebrew language, so it could easily fit.

But the New Testament wasn't translated from Hebrew. It was translated from Greek and they DO distinguish siblings from non-siblings. Like we know Elizabeth was a relative of Mary. Not her sister, but an aunt? Cousin? I don't remember off hand, but we know John the Baptist and Jesus are cousins.
Here is a good explanation which doesn't use the brother/cousin argument.

Originally Posted by Lord Of The Forest View Post
Unlikely. Veneration of Mary can be found in some of the very early Church Fathers.
And yes, it is biblical...

Luke 1:48: for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant.
For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed[.]
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