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  #21  
Unread 14th February 2014, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by sidelined View Post
Thanks once again Kylissa. What do you view the fire as, as in " baptise you with Holy Spirit and with fire"
To be honest, I have thought on that a little, but I never had a real answer. I offered the verse (with the qualifications) that it was simply a place that mentioned a Baptism in/with the Holy Spirit. It is repeated in other Gospels as well, I think.

That verse is the one that makes me feel kind of bad for not wanting to call it the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, since the Bible apparently does. It's just that so much misunderstanding has grown up, and so much controversy, and I've seen some pretty vicious disagreements, and it ought not be that way.

Many more Christians can agree with being filled with the Holy Spirit, however they view that happening.

I see GratiaCorpusChristi gave an answer on that verse. I would put his sources above my own.

I would be curious about your experiences regarding the Pentecostal church, if you happen to care to elaborate.

I've attended a few churches as my home church that I suppose would fit within the broad area of Pentecostalism (two non-denoms, one of which had Messianic leanings, and a FourSquare). But in searching for a new church since moving away from the FourSquare years ago, I have visited many various Pentecostal churches (and some non-Pentecostal as well) and while I saw a couple I would be satisfied to stay in, I have seen a spectrum of things that concern me. Some of them concern me very, very much, and are starting to seem the norm in many churches.
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  #22  
Unread 14th February 2014, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by GratiaCorpusChristi View Post
The textual history of Luke 3:16 and its Synoptic parallels is fairly muddied, but I'd have to go with James Dunn (the leading scholar on Jesus and the Spirit) and say that the verse is better read "He will deluge you in sanctifying wind and fire." This is tribulation language, not baptism language.
Ah, I have to add this to my list. I have too many pressing things I'm looking into at the moment, but that is really interesting.

I want to think about it, but I have never heard it put that way before, and I'm drawing a blank. Thanks for posting the information.
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Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός, Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός, Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος, ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς.




By this all men will know that you are My disciples,
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  #23  
Unread 14th February 2014, 04:44 PM
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Hi, You asked for my views on my particular pentacostal church. It is a wonderful body of loving christians who care for each other and that is why I am still there. But I dont think they test all they have been taught. I will give you an example. They will talk about "Baptism of the Holy Spirit", but that phrase is not biblical. "Baptism in,or Baptism with " is biblical. I think that the AOG who used to be so critical of the "Traditions of man" have fallen into they trap of following their own traditions, a lot of which come from the 1980`s. I am sorry but after studying the subject of speaking in tongues I have decided their statement of beliefs regarding this as being so shallow as to not have any worth. i suppose i am waking up to the realisation that if it is not a biblical term then it should not be turned into one. Blessings to you.
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  #24  
Unread 14th February 2014, 04:51 PM
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Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. - Ecclesiastes 7:29

Sidelined... I find that if the Holy Spirit cannot operate within a church that he will leave them to their own inventions. If that is the case a church can turn to prayer and repentance. If a good evangelist comes by there is hope again of rekindling the fire and of revival.

It is a matter of having God working with us. For without him we can do nothing.

I particularly worry over the fact that there are few good evangelist these days that can motivate a church out of the slump.
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  #25  
Unread 14th February 2014, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by sidelined View Post
Hi, You asked for my views on my particular pentacostal church. It is a wonderful body of loving christians who care for each other and that is why I am still there. But I dont think they test all they have been taught. I will give you an example. They will talk about "Baptism of the Holy Spirit", but that phrase is not biblical. "Baptism in,or Baptism with " is biblical. I think that the AOG who used to be so critical of the "Traditions of man" have fallen into they trap of following their own traditions, a lot of which come from the 1980`s. I am sorry but after studying the subject of speaking in tongues I have decided their statement of beliefs regarding this as being so shallow as to not have any worth. i suppose i am waking up to the realisation that if it is not a biblical term then it should not be turned into one. Blessings to you.
Thanks for sharing.

I went quite a bit to an AoG church that had services on "off" night so that I could attend worship without leaving my regular church. I would agree that the statement is inaccurate - not sure if our reasons are the same or not. I think it's very perceptive and honest of you to realize that many churches accuse others of following traditions without realizing that they do as well.

If I'm not being too intrusive, do you plan to seek a different church?

Thanks again for the reply.
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Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός, Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός, Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος, ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς.




By this all men will know that you are My disciples,
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Let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole lives
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  #26  
Unread 14th February 2014, 05:02 PM
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Hi, do I plan to leave the church. No, although it has crossed my mind. My feeling is that I do as much as I can to spotlight the inaccuracies in the hope that they will reconsider their views on certain issues. If it makes me unpopular then so be it. If I get chucked out then so be it.
Heres an example of the indefensible.

If muslims, hindus, witches mormons and pagans etc speak in tongues, then how is speaking in tongues the essential biblical evidence of being "Baptised in the Holy Spirit" To me it has no validaty whatsoever.
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  #27  
Unread 14th February 2014, 05:15 PM
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Sidelined. It would be great if the power of God existed within a mindset or a doctrine. The power of God exists within the heart. Therefore we can know all mysteries and still not have charity, or the power of God. As the heart of man is fickle... It is not something that we can put the greatest of trust in.

As far as speaking in tongues I think it is a poor indicator of spirituality. If a man preaches with the unction of the Holy Spirit you will know it for the Holy Spirit will be speaking to the heart as well as the mind.
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  #28  
Unread 14th February 2014, 06:30 PM
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The Baptism of the Holy Spirit occurred on Pentecost in Acts 2 , this seems to fit what John the Baptist prophesied. In Acts 4 you have a similar earth shacking experience and an outward sign was given again.

Then we go all the way to Acts 10: 45 …the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God.

But when Peter recounts what happened in Acts 10 with Cornelius and his household, Peter has to go all the way back to what John the Baptist prophesied : Acts 11: 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?” Peter also goes back to “when we believed” and not when anyone believes they receive this miraculous power.

I would suggest there are different portions of Holy Spirit with the indwelling portion being given to all believers. The indwelling portion is the much more important portion and Jesus said that he had to leave before this portion would be available John 14: 15-31.

Now I am not saying miracles cannot happen or a person cannot be filled with the Spirit, but the work of the outward miraculous portions of the Spirit do not seem needed in this age and part of the world.
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  #29  
Unread 14th February 2014, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by sidelined View Post
If muslims, hindus, witches mormons and pagans etc speak in tongues, then how is speaking in tongues the essential biblical evidence of being "Baptised in the Holy Spirit" To me it has no validaty whatsoever.
We were just discussing this (and much more) on a very long-running thread.

I do believe in a private prayer language for believers. But I don't agree with speaking in tongues as evidence of anything.

I would rather consider the passion one has for one's faith, the fruit displayed in one's life, and the level of sanctification to be better indicators that it is actually the Holy Spirit at work in one's life.

I'm not sure what might be going on in the church, but if any church is demanding people to "perform" by speaking in tongues, that introduces problems - not to mention being completely unscriptural. And if people who speak in tongues think of themselves more highly than they ought, thinking themselves more spiritual, that is evidence of problems as well.

May the Lord be with you and guide you.
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Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός, Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός, Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος, ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς.




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  #30  
Unread 14th February 2014, 08:00 PM
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"And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." - Acts 2:38

"Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." - John 3:5

"For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit." - 1 Corinthians 12:13

"In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit," - Ephesians 1:13

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