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  #261  
Unread 6th March 2014, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by genez View Post
You have yet to deal with my points, sir. You are creating a side issue as to avoid them. Would you like me to state them again?
after you correct your wrong behaviour you are more than welcome to repeat them and I will happily discuss it. Your behaviour which actively prevents your message getting across needs to be fixed first.
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  #262  
Unread 6th March 2014, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by genez View Post
No they do not. The most corrupt and embarrassing practices were forced to be dropped. To name a few... The selling of relics (parts of dead saints bodies)
There is a difference between teaching and practice. Practices are always changing, the teachings do not.

Selling of relics is not a theological issue. It is a practice which to my knowledge was never allowed. It would be simony.

and indulgences (paying money to keep you from hell) had been pushed under the carpet.
Indulgences do not keep anyone from hell and never did. Indulgences cannot be sold.
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  #263  
Unread 6th March 2014, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by packermann View Post
Usually you can tell whether a person is speaking literally or figuratively by asking yourself if it is too absurd to take literally. But that does not work for our Lord, because He is God. With Him all things are possible. If we start with the argument that it is just too absurd to taken literally, then everything that Jesus said or the Bible wrote can be taken figuratively if from our perspective based how much faith we have.

When I was a Protestant Evangelical, I went to an evangelical seminary. We studied many so-called Bible scholars who said that the Bible was myths (don't misunderstand me, this seminary was very conservative. We studied these hereitcs for the sole purpose of knowing how to refute them). Theses "Christian" scholars (who were wolves in sheep's clothing), said that the stories in the Bible were too absurd to be taken literally. They would argued the same way that you are. Since Jesus could not be literal about him being the door because that is just too absurd, then why not apply that to the stories in the Bible? The parting of the Red Sea did actually happen. That is just "too absurd" to have happened, so this story was only intended as a symbol for us how to live. Jesus did not actually rise from the dead, whic (to these heretics) is "absurd". It must have meant to be merely figurative. I want to point out that all these heretics are Protestants. I am not saying that all Protestants think this way, but when one start on the absurdity argument, this will open the doors to some thinking that even the Resurrection was only figurative.

Our Lord can do anything He wants to. If He wants to be a door, He can. But we are all in agreement that He is not literally the door. We cannot argue it based on it is too absurd to be taken literally. Again, nothing is impossible with God. So, we must think out why Jesus was intending this to be figurative, without using the absurdity argument. When Jesus said "I am the door", He meant it figuratively not because it is too absurd to be true. No, He meant it figuratively because of the sentence structure.

If He had went up to a door and touched it, and then said "I am THIS door", then He would have meant it literally. Then He would have been talking about a particular door, and it would it would have been taken literally.

I was once at a Protestant friend's house after I became Catholic. I saw a lamp on the table where I sitting. I picked it up and said "God is this light". I asked him if he agreed. He said no, and he thought I was crazy. I showed in the Bible the verse "God is light", and he still disgreed. He said that verse did not mean He was literally light like the light I was referring to when I picked up the lamp. He assumed I was talking little because I referring the a particular light.

Jesus picked up the bread, held it up, blessed it, and then said "THIS is my body". Jesus' body was not any bread. It was THIS particular bread. This is similar to my picking up a lamp and saying "THIS light is God". My friend thought I was crazy, and he was right because he thought I was talking literally. Jesus did not go out in the vineyard, touch a vine, and say "I am THIS vine". That would have been literal. And as absurd it may be, I would believe it because of the sentence structure - not because it is not possible for Christ to do this if He wanted. But He said "I am THE vine", not a partcular vine, but a generic vine. Is would be figurative.

You can accuse me of having child-like faith for believing such an absurd thing to be literal. But that is our Lord said that we must have child-like faith. The infinite, unchanging God changed a finite man. This man was able to walk on water, feed the five thousand with just a few loaves of bread and a couple of fishes, he healed people diseases, casted out demons, raised a man from the dead, and raised Himself from the dead. If this man said the the bread is His body, I believe it. I do not understand how it is possible, but that there are many things in the Bible I cannot understand how they happened. I just believe. Jesus said "THIS is my body". He said it. I believe it, that settles it.
I do not understand how it is possible, but that there are many things in the Bible I cannot understand how they happened. I just believe. Jesus said "THIS is my body". He said it. I believe it, that settles it.

I agree with you, He said it therefore I believe it too. Yes, even as a protestant I believe it. I do think many in the protestant realm take it too lightly. When I take communion I know I am receiving the very body and blood of Christ and I take it seriously. It is a meaningful moment in time when I feel close to God.
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  #264  
Unread 6th March 2014, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by packermann View Post
It means this is His body. Jesus did not say "This is a symbol of my body".

When Jesus said He is God, was He tallking that He was a symbol of God? When the Bible talks of Jesus' resurrection, is that only a symbol of how we, too, can overcome our problems? There are some Protestant scholars who do say that. Once you explain away one thing as only symbolic because you think it is impossible for to be taken literal, you are opening a whole can of worms of skepticism.
Yes you are correct in the above. Jesus said, "this is my body". He didn't say this represents my body nor did he say this is a symbol of my body. Jesus said that He is God. This is true too. So we can't pick and choose what we want just to make it fit neatly to our theology.

I once was baptist and I was always reading the bible and trying to make stuff fit my theology back then. While I am not catholic it is clear that the bible teaches that the bread and wine are His body and blood so when we receive communion we receive the true body and true blood of Christ. He is present in, under, and through the elements.
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if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” John 3:3. NKJV
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  #265  
Unread 6th March 2014, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by HereIstand.Todd View Post
Yes you are correct in the above. Jesus said, "this is my body". He didn't say this represents my body nor did he say this is a symbol of my body. Jesus said that He is God. This is true too. So we can't pick and choose what we want just to make it fit neatly to our theology.

I once was baptist and I was always reading the bible and trying to make stuff fit my theology back then. While I am not catholic it is clear that the bible teaches that the bread and wine are His body and blood so when we receive communion we receive the true body and true blood of Christ. He is present in, under, and through the elements.
Well, that's a second way of understanding "This is my body." Another is the Presbyterian way, and yet another is the Anglican way. But none of them rests entirely upon the words "This is my body" since those words can be interpreted many different ways, including the Baptistic view that they are meant only in a representational way.
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  #266  
Unread 6th March 2014, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Albion View Post
Well, that's a second way of understanding "This is my body." Another is the Presbyterian way, and yet another is the Anglican way. But none of them rests entirely upon the words "This is my body" since those words can be interpreted many different ways, including the Baptistic view that they are meant only in a representational way.
I have a unique way of understanding it, it's a blending of the Lutheran, Presbyterian, and Catholic views of it.
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if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” John 3:3. NKJV
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  #267  
Unread 6th March 2014, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDag View Post
after you correct your wrong behaviour you are more than welcome to repeat them and I will happily discuss it. Your behaviour which actively prevents your message getting across needs to be fixed first.
You will be held accountable for the truth that comes your way. It will not always be presented on your terms. You will not always be able to take control. Jesus said that if you are to follow him that you must deny self and take up your cross. There was a perfect reason for that.

I do not wish to change a thing. If you wish to ignore the truth I presented? You are not accountable to me. For, I presented the truth with clarity. You are accountable to the Lord.
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  #268  
Unread 6th March 2014, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by HereIstand.Todd View Post
I have a unique way of understanding it, it's a blending of the Lutheran, Presbyterian, and Catholic views of it.
I've heard of Transubstantiation, Consubstantiation, and some other concepts. What is yours called? Supersubstantiation, perhaps.
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  #269  
Unread 7th March 2014, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by HereIstand.Todd View Post
I do not understand how it is possible, but that there are many things in the Bible I cannot understand how they happened. I just believe. Jesus said "THIS is my body". He said it. I believe it, that settles it.
Yes, but he wasn't pointing to his own body when he said that; he took bread.

Jesus said, "I am the bread of life" - it doesn't mean he turned into a bread roll. He didn't become an actual vine, we are not literal branches and do not need to bear, or produce, bunches of grapes in order to glorify God.
Jesus was a man AND God and remained so.

The question is, what did the disciples understand by his words? They could see that Jesus was holding bread, not pointing to himself, and he broke the bread. His body was not broken at that particular point; this was symbolic of the way his body would be broken on the cross.
Paul says in 1 Cor 11, the earliest account of the Last Supper that we have, that Jesus said, "do this in memory of me" (1 Cor 11:24). Luke says the same. Do what in memory of him? Breaking bread. And we are told that the early church devoted themselves to breaking bread. (Acts 2:42). It's very unlikely that they kept any of the bread from the last supper - the bread that Jesus had personally touched. They most likely took a roll that someone had made that morning, or used the bread that was part of their meal.
This was what the Last Supper was; the last Passover meal that Jesus would share with his disciples. They ate the Passover to commemorate that the Lord their God had rescued them from slavery in Egypt. On the cross, Jesus rescued us from sin and death. He was the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, and was killed at the same time as the Passover lambs were being killed. He was the bread of life, born in Bethlehem, the house of bread, who was broken and given for us - God gave his Son to die and bear the punishment for our sins.
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  #270  
Unread 7th March 2014, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by genez View Post
You will be held accountable for the truth that comes your way. It will not always be presented on your terms. You will not always be able to take control. Jesus said that if you are to follow him that you must deny self and take up your cross. There was a perfect reason for that.

I do not wish to change a thing. If you wish to ignore the truth I presented? You are not accountable to me. For, I presented the truth with clarity. You are accountable to the Lord.
[indent]Husband: Martha... that doctor just told me what's really needed to cure your cancer.

Wife: I did not like his approach. He is not soft and easy like my doctor who does not have an answer.



Have it your way. You still remain accountable.
well I tried getting you to behave in accordance with biblical teaching and your failure to do so is what you will be accountable for. I will not be held accountable for rejecting something that I have not rejected. Unless you can point out where I rejected any scripture you posted then you are bearing false witness.
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