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  #101  
Unread 9th November 2013, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by ContraMundum View Post
So I was right- you were never a Christian. You just fibbed.
I just told you I became a Muslim after leaving Christianity, there is no lie to be made in this claim.


Yes. Agreed.
Oh boy.

I accept the Judaic laws that pertain to me, a Jewish Christian. The historic events - even the tragic ones- are not laws. They are history.
They are stories.

I don't think you understand this, and the distinctions between history and law, prescription and description. This is why your attempt to place the two together is incorrect.
If god commanded it then it was a divine law and would be expunged until accomplished or given an end through the ceasing of the action.
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  #102  
Unread 9th November 2013, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by ContraMundum View Post
Demonstrate why.
I'm pretty sure that's not how it works & that the onus is on you to prove your claim.

But I'll be generous and quote part of my previous post:

Sanctions on Iraq in the 90's: 500,000 children under the age of 5 died due to non-Muslims. Madeleine Albright said that price (starving those children to death) was worth it (disgusting excuse for a human being).

War in Iraq starting from 2003 till now: anywhere between 100,000-700,000 dead due directly/indirectly to the Western invasion.

And this isn't getting into the severe birth defects (and miscarriages) caused by the depleted uranium that these foreign invaders used in Iraq. Or the effects of DU in adults. Or into Abu Ghraib. Or rapes.

Afghanistan: Who knows? None of the attacking nations care to keep a body count, that's how insignificant the Afghan dead are to them. But God knows and He is the Most Just.

Drone attacks in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yemen: Again, who knows? But of the 3,149 reported fatalities in Pakistan, less than 2% of the casualties are high-profile targets. The rest are civilians, children, or alleged militants (though their names are never given). More info here: Out of Sight, Out of Mind: A visualization of drone strikes in Pakistan since 2004


It IS the topic. Look at the top of this thread. You were the one derailing it into politics.
I was directly responding to a claim & why it's false. Go back to my initial post if you want.
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  #103  
Unread 9th November 2013, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by LoveBeingAMuslimah View Post
I'm pretty sure that's not how it works & that the onus is on you to prove your claim.

But I'll be generous and quote part of my previous post:

Sanctions on Iraq in the 90's: 500,000 children under the age of 5 died due to non-Muslims. Madeleine Albright said that price (starving those children to death) was worth it (disgusting excuse for a human being).

War in Iraq starting from 2003 till now: anywhere between 100,000-700,000 dead due directly/indirectly to the Western invasion.

And this isn't getting into the severe birth defects (and miscarriages) caused by the depleted uranium that these foreign invaders used in Iraq. Or the effects of DU in adults. Or into Abu Ghraib. Or rapes.

Afghanistan: Who knows? None of the attacking nations care to keep a body count, that's how insignificant the Afghan dead are to them. But God knows and He is the Most Just.

Drone attacks in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yemen: Again, who knows? But of the 3,149 reported fatalities in Pakistan, less than 2% of the casualties are high-profile targets. The rest are civilians, children, or alleged militants (though their names are never given). More info here: Out of Sight, Out of Mind: A visualization of drone strikes in Pakistan since 2004
Why are you posting these disputed figures twice? You've done this, address my last response to these and then move on.

...and what's the "crimes of the Evil Great Satan" USA got to do with proving that Islam is the religion of peace?

Surely if we got involved in bodycount politics there would be rivers of blood to sort through that Islam "directly or indirectly" is responsible for.

I was directly responding to a claim & why it's false. Go back to my initial post if you want.
Just accept the challenge. Prove, from the life, teachings and hadiths of and about Mohammed that your religion is the religion of peace. Then explain why its adherents seem to have such a hard time living in peace.
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  #104  
Unread 9th November 2013, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by TheImmaculateSlaveOfGod View Post
When I left Islam it was common for Muslims to say I was never a Muslim because if I was a real Muslim I would have never left.
Originally Posted by TheImmaculateSlaveOfGod
Was raised a Christian, and I can give you the Bible.

Originally Posted by TheImmaculateSlaveOfGod View Post
I just told you I became a Muslim after leaving Christianity, there is no lie to be made in this claim.
No you didn't.

Make up your mind, man!

If god commanded it then it was a divine law and would be expunged until accomplished or given an end through the ceasing of the action.
That sentence makes no sense. Perhaps your translator program is not working properly.

In any case, if you really were a Christian in the past, you were dreadfully educated in your religion, and you have no business quoting the Bible here. leave it to the faithful to do the intepreting, it is a dark book to the unsaved who read it without faith.
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  #105  
Unread 9th November 2013, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by ContraMundum View Post
Why are you posting these disputed figures twice? You've done this, address my last response to these and then move on.
Move on? Please. We will never forget.

I posted them twice because it was terrorism* inflicted by non-Muslims on Muslims. But let me guess, that's not terrorism because it was not the other way around.

*I don't like using the word terrorism because it's such a vague term as mentioned previously. But I'm just using it here in the context that people use it for Muslims.

As for disputed figures, well,

"It's worth noting that on 60 Minutes, Albright made no attempt to deny the figure given by Stahl--a rough rendering of the preliminary estimate in a 1995 U.N. Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) report that 567,000 Iraqi children under the age of five had died as a result of the sanctions...."

That's when she said the price was worth it.

"Later, UNICEF came out with the first authoritative report (8/99), based on a survey of 24,000 households, suggesting that the total “excess” deaths of children under 5 was about 500,000."

‘We Think the Price Is Worth It’ €” FAIR: Fairness & Accuracy In Reporting


...and what's the "crimes of the Evil Great Satan" USA got to do with proving that Islam is the religion of peace?
You said:

You have to admit, sooner or later, that Islam is the prime source of terrorism this century.

So citing non-Muslims' terrorist activities is a pretty good way to disprove your claim (not that the onus was on me anyways).

Surely if we got involved in bodycount politics there would be rivers of blood to sort through that Islam "directly or indirectly" is responsible for.
If Islaam is responsible for rivers of blood, then Christianity is responsible for oceans of blood.

Just accept the challenge. Prove, from the life, teachings and hadiths of and about Mohammed that your religion is the religion of peace. Then explain why its adherents seem to have such a hard time living in peace.
Again, you're changing the topic. P.S. I never said that Islaam was pacifist. It certainly brings peace to the land if properly followed due to the justice of Islaam. And it also brings peace to its followers in terms of the peace the faith gives to our hearts as well as the peace that Muslims will have in the Hereafter. But we DON'T say that Islaam is pacifist and not many Muslims claim that.

Now, please stop changing the topic.
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  #106  
Unread 9th November 2013, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by LoveBeingAMuslimah View Post
Move on? Please. We will never forget.

I posted them twice because it was terrorism* inflicted by non-Muslims on Muslims. But let me guess, that's not terrorism because it was not the other way around.
I don't think your definition of terrorism is workable. That I hinted at. War crimes, sanctions etc are not terrorism. They are another things altogether.

I don't think you seem to understand that two wrongs don't make a right. Just because there is crime done by one side doesn't mean that we should excuse the crimes of others.

*I don't like using the word terrorism because it's such a vague term as mentioned previously. But I'm just using it here in the context that people use it for Muslims.
I think terrorism is a quite a useful word for homocides committed against soft or defenseless targets not organised or endorsed by a recognisable, accountable and prosecutable authority. eg. a government. So when a government bombs another country, like in a war, and innocents are killed, that government can be held accountable. However, when a bunch of thugs attack a shopping centre for a cause that they believe in, that is terrorism.

While that's not a perfect definition, it is workable.

I realize in your university that definitions are forever open to debate (post-modernism) but you gotta have an umpire before you blow the whistle.

So citing non-Muslims' terrorist activities is a pretty good way to disprove your claim (not that the onus was on me anyways).
So, you honestly think that Islam is not the religion/culture most associated with terrorism this century?

What planet do you live on?

If Islaam is responsible for rivers of blood, then Christianity is responsible for oceans of blood.
I could ask you to prove that, and I would dispute it, but from a purely secular point of view I will allow it. So: Not since the 1600s. 400 years now or very little aggression and war fought in the Name of Christ. Islam started in violence, and continues in violence.

Again, you're changing the topic. P.S. I never said that Islaam was pacifist. It certainly brings peace to the land if properly followed due to the justice of Islaam.
...just like communism brings peace and order, and Nazism, and any other ism. Conformity always brings order and peace- but it's a human order and peace and as such is skin deep.

And it also brings peace to its followers in terms of the peace the faith gives to our hearts as well as the peace that Muslims will have in the Hereafter. But we DON'T say that Islaam is pacifist and not many Muslims claim that.
So, it is a religion of peace- only when it has subdued all other religions and all are under it's rule.

That's Imperialism. Pure and simple. Since the start, Islam is about Arab political and cultural imperialism.

Now, please stop changing the topic.
You say that a lot, but I'm just trying to keep to the OP of the thread. You bring in bodycount politics, massacre equivocation and all those other rabbit trails. Stick to it.
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  #107  
Unread 9th November 2013, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by TG123 View Post
Muhammad waged war initially on the pagans who threw him out of Mecca and persecuted his followers. He waged wars also with some Jewish tribes who supported them. He did massacre POWs from the Banu Qurayzah tribe and took their women and children as prisoners. He did at the same time forbid his men from killing women and children intentionally, although, like the US Army, he did believe in "collateral damage", saying it is OK to attack a place with civilians if there are also military targets there. I hope you are as much opposed to your armed forces as you are to him, since they have killed far more people than he did, many of them innocent civilians.

Muhammad did at one point threaten to attack 2 Omani leaders if they did not convert to Islam. I am unaware of any other instances when he waged or threatened to wage aggressive war.

Muhammad married a 6 year old girl and slept with her, although we do not know how old she was when they had sex. Some say when she was a child, others say when she was more than 18. Marrying a child and having sex with a child is perverted and wrong in light of what we know about child development, sure. It was also what societies did back then. Does that make Muhammad marrying Aisha at such a young age OK? No. Does it make him worse than others of his time? Also no.

I am not arguing that Islam is a "religion of peace". It isn't. It is neither pacifist nor does it offer the path to true peace, which can only be found in Jesus Christ.

However, it is also not a religion of terrorism, as some absurdly suggest.
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  #108  
Unread 9th November 2013, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ContraMundum View Post
I don't think your definition of terrorism is workable. That I hinted at. War crimes, sanctions etc are not terrorism. They are another things altogether.

I don't think you seem to understand that two wrongs don't make a right. Just because there is crime done by one side doesn't mean that we should excuse the crimes of others.
Why do you get to decide what terrorism is? Tell the victims of war crimes and sanctions that what they went through is not terrorism. Because they'd beg to differ.

I think terrorism is a quite a useful word for homocides committed against soft or defenseless targets not organised or endorsed by a recognisable, accountable and prosecutable authority. eg. a government. So when a government bombs another country, like in a war, and innocents are killed, that government can be held accountable. However, when a bunch of thugs attack a shopping centre for a cause that they believe in, that is terrorism.
In other words, being in a suit and a tie & calling yourself president means that you will never be practically/realistically guilty of terrorism even though they otherwise fit the definition of it.

While that's not a perfect definition, it is workable.
Not really, because you then excuse all of the terrorist activities of governments by saying it's not really terrorism.

I realize in your university that definitions are forever open to debate (post-modernism) but you gotta have an umpire before you blow the whistle.
And the umpire is a person of your choosing/mindset? No thank you.


So, you honestly think that Islam is not the religion/culture most associated with terrorism this century?
Yes.

What planet do you live on?
The planet that does not ignore what has happened to the Muslims at the hands of non-Muslims. You?

I could ask you to prove that, and I would dispute it, but from a purely secular point of view I will allow it. So: Not since the 1600s. 400 years now or very little aggression and war fought in the Name of Christ. Islam started in violence, and continues in violence.
It's easily proven from your own Bible. Anyways.

Thankfully, Islaam has guidelines of war. If only Christianity had such practical & moral guidelines, maybe they wouldn't have been so ruthless throughout history.

...just like communism brings peace and order, and Nazism, and any other ism. Conformity always brings order and peace- but it's a human order and peace and as such is skin deep.
No, neither communism nor Nazism have brought any order & peace for a long period of time.

When Muslims have ruled by Islaam & it was the law of the land for long periods of time, people of other religions have prospered. You'll be hard-pressed to give me an example of the same regarding religious Christians/Jews (or religious anythings) who have ruled by their laws.

So, it is a religion of peace- only when it has subdued all other religions and all are under it's rule.

That's Imperialism. Pure and simple. Since the start, Islam is about Arab political and cultural imperialism.
No, Islaam is about spreading the truth to all corners of the earth. Islaam is about submission to God.

You say that a lot, but I'm just trying to keep to the OP of the thread. You bring in bodycount politics, massacre equivocation and all those other rabbit trails. Stick to it.
You're the one who quoted my post that was in response to someone else. And I was directly responding to a portion of their post (so my post was relevant).
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  #109  
Unread 9th November 2013, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by LoveBeingAMuslimah View Post


Ummmmmmm, no. I say that all Islaamic lands are the most just of all. I do not say that any exist today, unfortunately. .
I am sorry, but this is utter nonsense, the most just of all is a barefaced lie or being completely deluding!

All you do is compare Islamic societies of the past to the societies of medeval Europe. So all you've got is a period where Islam was "more tolerant" than western Christendom.

The same trappings were all there during the days of the Caliph, executing those who leave Islam or publically disagree with it, Islamic society was the "most Just" for those who are serious about Islam. not for Christians and others.

Yet in modern western society, Muslims are free to spead there faith and garnish converts to it, your Islamic societies never offered freedom for those to change faith (unless becoming Muslim)


Also for the record, Shamanist Mongolian society was more tolerant than Islamic society, the Roman Empire had long peroids of tolerance aswell, Chinese society too.

Even some western medaval societes had periods of tolerance, like King Roger of Sicily.

So your claims of Islamic society being the most "just" is down to cherry picking, personal opinion and compairing it to the violent medavel west.
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  #110  
Unread 9th November 2013, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by LoveBeingAMuslimah View Post
Not really.

And whatever you may say, this shows that despite the West's claims that they champion human rights and everyone is equal, Muslims are not considered equally. End of discussion.

"End of discussion", huh?

I am sorry, but "Not really", you can actually sit there and pretend Muslims are treated worse than non-Muslims in Islamic lands?

The laws in Islamic lands show that your claims of "tolerance" are at best a laugh. Over and over again I ask the same thing, where are people being arrested in the west for just converting to Islam, you know an actual law that stops people converting?

You lot really are hypocrites.

You see nothing wrong with your more oppressive rules over non-Muslims, but than actually have the audacity to claim your treated worse than anybody else?

You have no right to say "End of discussion" to simply hide away from your glaringly hypocritical claims.

Muslims lands being worse than western lands for personal freedoms is the real "Discussion ender" as the facts support it, while yours is largely unfounded claims and hearsay, while Islamic codes of law in many Muslims nations actually have it written into it, for all to see.
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