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  #81  
Old 22nd October 2013, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by JimB View Post
So, now I am wondering what lasting good this senseless confrontation accomplished. Was anybody saved, fed, clothed, encouraged, edified? Except for providing another publicity stage for the principals and, maybe, proving that someone was right and the other was wrong, I can’t see much else was achieved.

If Driscoll’s attempt to enter into the conference had the result of demonstrating that the underling purpose of the conference, which was to undermine the work and person of the Holy Spirit was a fraud, then I would say that Driscoll with one stroke, may have been able to help many of our less than astute brothers and sisters (and the rest) to realise that what MacArthur, Sproul and others were promoting was nothing less than a false humanist gospel.

In post #54 Andrea411 mentioned that she was unable to find any secular references to the event so I gather that the secular media has left it alone. If I had not seen some earlier references to this worldly conference in this forum, as it was organised by MacArthur, then I really wonder if I would have taken notice of it when the online Christian magazines made mention of it – as I’ve mentioned before, for me, MacArthur is simply a bit of a yawn so I doubt if I would have bothered clicking on the articles heading for any more info.

So hopefully, his presence, which may have only been outside of the conference building has had an impact, along with the numerous articles by Pentecostals and charismatic commentators which have pointed out MacArthurs dishonesty with the purpose of the event.
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  #82  
Old 23rd October 2013, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Behe's Boy View Post
What does this have to do with anything? I attend a Charismatic Church and I can assure you there is no head-banging going on during the worship service or any other part of the service...
I didn't say anything about head- banging. Where did that come from?
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  #83  
Old 23rd October 2013, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Biblicist View Post
If Driscoll’s attempt to enter into the conference had the result of demonstrating that the underling purpose of the conference, which was to undermine the work and person of the Holy Spirit was a fraud, then I would say that Driscoll with one stroke, may have been able to help many of our less than astute brothers and sisters (and the rest) to realise that what MacArthur, Sproul and others were promoting was nothing less than a false humanist gospel.

In post #54 Andrea411 mentioned that she was unable to find any secular references to the event so I gather that the secular media has left it alone. If I had not seen some earlier references to this worldly conference in this forum, as it was organised by MacArthur, then I really wonder if I would have taken notice of it when the online Christian magazines made mention of it – as I’ve mentioned before, for me, MacArthur is simply a bit of a yawn so I doubt if I would have bothered clicking on the articles heading for any more info.

So hopefully, his presence, which may have only been outside of the conference building has had an impact, along with the numerous articles by Pentecostals and charismatic commentators which have pointed out MacArthurs dishonesty with the purpose of the event.

If Driscoll walked on water every morning just to get his morning paper or raised the dead in funeral parlors, I still would not approve of his actions nor would I want to follow his example. The best proof of Driscoll’s claims would be to do them, not crash someone’s party with an agenda. The gifts were not given to us to debate, but to use; they are like tools to help build the kingdom. Instead, Driscoll and Macarthur are like two carpenters arguing over which hammer is the best, Stanley claw hammers or DeWalt ball peens. Arguing over whose hammer is best never nailed anything and never got anyone's hands dirty. We need to do the stuff in the marketplace, not quarrel about it in a classroom (or at a conference). At least was that Jesus’ and the Apostle’s way. They did not demonstrate with symbolic gestures, they did it with power— “my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power.” Spiritual power is not given to us to be debated but to be used.

IOW, Don’t tell me what you believe, show me.
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  #84  
Old 23rd October 2013, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by JimB View Post
If Driscoll walked on water every morning just to get his morning paper or raised the dead in funeral parlors, I still would not approve of his actions nor would I want to follow his example. . .
As this is your position on this type of behaviour then who am I to say that you are wrong, you simply have to do what you believe is the right thing to do.

The best proof of Driscoll’s claims would be to do them, not crash someone’s party with an agenda. The gifts were not given to us to debate, but to use; they are like tools to help build the kingdom.
I seem to recall that Jesus wasn’t overly impressed with the ‘party’ that the Jews were holding in his Fathers temple so he marched right in and upset their apple (money) carts. We could take Luthers example where he marched up to the front door of the Roman Catholic cathedral and pinned his objections to their immoral behaviour and shoddy doctrine on their front door, though this could be a problem today as we would probably have to use blue-tack and the paper would probably end up getting stuck in the automatic sliding doors.

Was Driscolls attempt to enter into that worldly conference any different to those churches who hold stalls at the various New Age conferences? Though I acknowledge that they have followed due process in that they will be required to register their intention to do so.

Instead, Driscoll and Macarthur are like two carpenters arguing over which hammer is the best, Stanley claw hammers or DeWalt ball peens. Arguing over whose hammer is best never nailed anything and never got anyone's hands dirty.
Well…with this one I would say that Driscolls concerns are addressing the very core of the Gospel in that he is objecting to the way in which MacArthur and his mates are disparaging the work and person of the Holy Spirit – we are now talking about life and death issues.

We need to do the stuff in the marketplace, not quarrel about it in a classroom (or at a conference). At least was that Jesus’ and the Apostle’s way. They did not demonstrate with symbolic gestures, they did it with power— “my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power.” Spiritual power is not given to us to be debated but to be used.
With regard to my earlier reference to Luther, from what I can tell in the New Testament, Jesus and the Apostles were certainly prepared to challenge the status quo whenever and wherever it was required to do so. As for Paul, he seemed to engage head-on with everyone from the synagogue through to the market place.

As I mentioned earlier, you can only follow your own conscience and as you feel that this type of behaviour is not appropriate then you have made the right decision in that you are following your conscience on this particular issue.
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  #85  
Old 23rd October 2013, 09:32 AM
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Mark Driscoll gifted his books. They were not confiscated.
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  #86  
Old 23rd October 2013, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Stone Butterfly View Post
Mark Driscoll gifted his books. They were not confiscated.
Thanks for that video though I found a few parts a bit hard to understand as the audio was a bit unclear. It does seem that Driscoll and the security team both did a good job and of course the security boys were simply doing the job that they were being paid to do.

As much as the security team siezed or removed Driscolls books from wherever he left them, we can certainly understand why they would not want anyone to leave any Biblically based material on hand for the conference attendees to come across - especially from someone like Driscoll who had a far better knowledge of the subject than did the conference speakers.
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  #87  
Old 23rd October 2013, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Biblicist View Post

As much as the security team siezed or removed Driscolls books from wherever he left them,
I don't think you get it. The point of that video, that had subtitles at key points, proves the security team did not sieze Driscoll's books. Driscoll gifted them to grace!

This is a different video link, turn up the volume so you can hear.
The security team did not seize these books!



This means that when Mark Driscoll says the security team seized his books that he's lying! That wouldn't reflect a higher knowledge of grace, God, scripture, or moral character. Especially if he presumes to think he's of a better standard than those who organized this conference he thought to crash.
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  #88  
Old 23rd October 2013, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Stone Butterfly View Post
I don't think you get it. The point of that video, that had subtitles at key points, proves the security team did not sieze Driscoll's books. Driscoll gifted them to grace!

This is a different video link, turn up the volume so you can hear.
The security team did not seize these books!

This means that when Mark Driscoll says the security team seized his books that he's lying! That wouldn't reflect a higher knowledge of grace, God, scripture, or moral character. Especially if he presumes to think he's of a better standard than those who organized this conference he thought to crash.
I think that you might be failing to understand that the security team did in fact sieze or remove Driscolls books and of course they were legally entitled to do so, which undoubtedly Driscoll would agree with. In fact I would be greatly surprised if Driscoll ever thought that they would dare leave them within the conference precinct. All he was trying to do was to make a statement which he certainly succeeded in doing.

The plus side of Driscoll attempting to make a stand for Biblical truth is that many cessationists would have been compelled to take a deeper look into the false teachings of the conference; so Driscolls cheeky inroad into this worldly venue has undoubtedly achieved a fair amount of fruit.

I wonder if his books were put into the nearest bin or if the security team were able to sneak a few copies for their own reading.
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  #89  
Old 23rd October 2013, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Biblicist View Post
*****

As I mentioned earlier, you can only follow your own conscience and as you feel that this type of behaviour is not appropriate then you have made the right decision in that you are following your conscience on this particular issue.
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Old 23rd October 2013, 01:28 PM
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I don't side with a minister disrupting another pastors conference so as to get publicity for his book. How would Driscoll like it if a pastor did the same to his church? Walked in during a Sunday sermon with arm fulls of his new book and offered them for sale to people in the pews? A book that contradicted Driscoll's teachings?
Would that show respect in the house of God?

And no, they don't have the right to confiscate and keep Driscoll's books. That's theft. They can confiscate because he didn't go through the proper vetting channels. But they have to give them back to him or else they can be charged for stealing his books.

"Driscoll’s claim is being disputed.
Rich Gregory, assistant to John MacArthur, said he was there when it happened and that Driscoll’s books were not confiscated and there was nothing confrontational.
“It was great, we were happy to have him at the conference. He brought books to hand out. We explained to him that all the books distributed on campus need to be approved. He told us that he wanted them to be a gift to us from him. One of our conference directors took that gift and brought them up to the offices. If you hear from him and he wants them back, we can send those back if he wants them. We were not looking at him like, ‘Boy you’re trying to stir up controversy.’ I don’t want to judge his motives for what he wasn’t trying to do. I wish they had actually stayed for the actual content of the conference.”
A call to Mars Hill has not been returned.
Both pastors have new books they are promoting."
October 18, 2013 RNS John MacArthur vs. Mark Driscoll: Megachurch pastors clash over charismatic theology
Originally Posted by Biblicist View Post
I think that you might be failing to understand that the security team did in fact sieze or remove Driscolls books and of course they were legally entitled to do so, which undoubtedly Driscoll would agree with. In fact I would be greatly surprised if Driscoll ever thought that they would dare leave them within the conference precinct. All he was trying to do was to make a statement which he certainly succeeded in doing.

The plus side of Driscoll attempting to make a stand for Biblical truth is that many cessationists would have been compelled to take a deeper look into the false teachings of the conference; so Driscolls cheeky inroad into this worldly venue has undoubtedly achieved a fair amount of fruit.

I wonder if his books were put into the nearest bin or if the security team were able to sneak a few copies for their own reading.
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