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Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum The Endtimes & Prophecy Forum for the discussion of future events. No full preterist views. Partial preterists welcomed.

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Unread 8th October 2013, 09:52 AM
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Idea Syria & Israel: Examining the Positive Prophecies for God's Heart/People....

Blessings...

Seems every time you hear about Syria recently that there's bad news - and it also seems many tend to be thinking that there's no hope for it. It's bad enough that two million Syrians have fled their country and a further 4.3 million have been forced from their homes while remaining within the nation's borders as war continues to rage....but even worse to see the ways that the U.S has been funding those on the side who've been harming many in Syria -Syria currently and Libya alongside other places being caught up in so much political intrigue ( #51 /#22#53 )


However, what also seems highly intriguing to me is the ways many have been making commentary on the ways that the people of Syria (especially the believers) has all been prophesied - with others seeming to be flippant in saying "Well, this is just Biblical prophecy that Syria is being harmed - so the believers there don't matter since it's all about people rising up to be judged by Israel!!!!" ..

As much as I've prayed for Israel and feel the Lord will use it and that it has purpose, it is highly problematic to me whenever others act as if the other nations who suffer (like Syria) have no positive place in Biblical prophecy - and then dismiss what goes on with God's people in those nations as if it's of no consequence.


Many - as it concerns prophecy on Syria - have gone to the following:
* Isaiah 17:1-3 The oracle concerning Damascus. Behold, Damascus is about to be removed from being a city and will become a fallen ruin. The cities of Aroer are forsaken; they will be for flocks to lie down in, and there will be no one to frighten them. The fortified city will disappear from Ephraim, and sovereignty from Damascus.


And at evening time, behold, there is terror! Before morning they are no more.


Damascus is one of the oldest cities of the world and many have claimed that it has never been destroyed....and have wondered that rather than it being wiped out by a nuclear strike by Israel that it might meet it's demise because of a smaller intentioned strike to take out it's chemical weapons plants only to realize a larger than life explosion of other material?

But there are several issues with that - one of the biggest being that we really have NO evidence of chemical weapons being present within Syria.....'

And the other being how prophecy can be interpreted. Heard the prophecy about Damascus being destroyed the other day - in a manner that seemed very callous to what was going on in Syria and acting as if it was solely a matter of "Biblical Prophecy" as opposed to the reality of artifically seeking to destroy others and justify the destruction of others (especially the Christians suffering there) as if it was simply destined to happen ....and it bothered me that so many seemed quick to run to Isaiah 17 without addressing the FULL context of scripture/seeing all the factors that are connected with it.


There were a couple of places that seemed to have good info - one of them being here and here:
Whenever others claim "Damascus has NEVER been destroyed!!!" - I see a lot of inconsistency. For there are several other references to the Fall of Damascus and I think primarily it is in reference to things that have already happened when it comes to Isaiah. Not to nuclear or chemical weapons attacks. For in the 4th year of Ahaz (as seen in 2 Kings 16:9), Damascus fell to the Assyrians and he carried off the people to Kir. However, here in Hezekiah's reign another overthrow is foretold.....as seen in 2 Kings 17:6
"In the ninth year of Hoshea, the King of Assyria captured Samaria and carried Israel away into exile to Assyria, and settled them in Halah and Habor, on the river of Gozan and in the cities of the Medes."


One should also consider references such as Jeremiah 49:23-24 and Zech 9:1 and Micah 1:6 - but suffice to say, the way many fundamentalists read the scriptures on Syria often seems to be in a literal application divorced from the culture it was spoken in.....centuries removed/divorced from events. It's sad to see the way that many Evangelical Christians celebrate the destruction of other nations in the name of supporting Israel and yet no one considers the ways that the Gospel is neglected - as well as not truly seeing people as the Lord does. John Hagee comes immediately to mind in how much he has done the same as others seem to be doing with Syria - championing war mongering in the name of Israel being established and having a mercenary mindset that is not concerned with the salvation of all (more shared in #18 /#355 ).


There does seem to be a lot of the END-Times sensationalism that seems to be going on with events in the Middle-East and the many ways people seem to be continually saying that it's the end of the world - and as much as I may enjoy/adhere to aspects of Futurism to see the way many futurist individuals have spoken on the times (i.e. Claiming "Well you know - Damascus was prophesied to be COMPLETELY destroyed in order to save Israel according to Isaiah 17 - with that being what's going on with the deaths in Syria"....or saying "The world is going to Hell just as the Lord always intended it!!! God's Judging!!!", etc.) .........I just don't see why it seems so many don't seem to want to acknowledge that perhaps we're not in the End as many prophesy - and are simply experiencing things relative to where we are.

I acknowledge that having some leanings toward partial preterism and futurism mixed makes a lot of difference in how I choose to respond - noted in #43 /#49 /#118 /#213 - but on the futurism aspect, it is interesting how many point to negative prophecies about Syria and yet never consider the good ones that have been made as well. For Isaiah describes a time when Egypt and Assyria - along with Israel - will be a blessing on the Earth. Interestingly enough, what was Assyria in Isaiah's day includes parts of Turkey, Iraq and Syria today. Assyria was an ancient empire whose capital city was Nineveh (II Kings 19:36). It was primarily located in Mesopotamia, the land between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers on the western end -- roughly where Iraq is currently located. The Assyrian Empire extended from Ur of Chaldes, up the Tigress-Euphrates valley toward Baghdad then across to the Mediterranean, taking in modern day Syria.





So Assyria in the Bible included modern day Iraq and Syria. And by substituting the names of these present-day countries, we come up with remarkable scripture as it relates to prophecy
Isaiah 19:19-21Isaiah 19
20 And it will be for a sign and for a witness to the Lord of hosts in the land of Egypt; for they will cry to the Lord because of the oppressors, and He will send them a Savior and a Mighty One, and He will deliver them.

21 Then the Lord will be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians will know the Lord in that day, and will make sacrifice and offering; yes, they will make a vow to the Lord and perform it. 22 And the Lord will strike Egypt, He will strike and heal it; they will return to the Lord, and He will be entreated by them and heal them.

23 In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian will come into Egypt and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians will serve with the Assyrians.

24 In that day Israel will be one of three with Egypt and Assyriaa blessing in the midst of the land, 25 whom the Lord of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance.



Amazing to consider the ways that we often act like Jonah - wanting to see the destruction of Assyria and yet never considering God's heart for it ...or never seeing the people within it who were destined to serve the Lord/be used of him













God has a heart for Syria - as well as other nations in Biblical prophecy (more shared in #12 ) - with much of the Gospel and the Church itself beginning with the Apostle Paul IN Antioch and Damascus (in Syria) when seeing Acts 9 and Acts 11.....the Church exceptionally strong there. And with the destruction befalling it, I think we need to remember that it's not ALWAYS a matter of God bringing a negative judgment. And in many ways, it would do a lot of good if others in the Body of Christ would realize how the West is Helping to Destroy Christianity in Syria...



Many things we place on God - but really, some things can simply be the actions of man. Something my cousin and I were discussing the other day was that it often seems people tend to be looking continually for what they deem to be End-Time events signs - from what's going on in Israel to the wars seeming to begin - and yet no one considers if perhaps it's possible to have events scripted/played out (like dramas) in an artificial manner where it seems like the real deal - and yet it's not anywhere close to how the Lord intended it. Simply for the sake of ensuring deception and throwing others off into getting excited/riled up over events thinking they meant one thing when they really were jumping the gun - and still missing the main goal....




Blessings
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  #2  
Unread 8th October 2013, 11:11 AM
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Unread 8th October 2013, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by vinsight4u View Post
Just a quick comment. Knowing the Lord does not have to mean that they are saved- believers. The OT shows it means that they know His power - saw the might of it by plagues or such.
It also shows where KNOWING the Lord also included knowing him intimately in the sense of relationship....context always makes the difference when it comes to what the Lord noted - and what played out historically with others coming to trust in Him/being deemed his people.

The same dynamic of knowing the Lord in being saved/following Him is also noted in the story of Naaman the Syrian (from the nation of Aram where Syria is at) - from 2 Kings 5 whom Christ referenced later on when it came to the people he chose to interact with and saying what it meant to follow the Lord:

Luke 4:18

Jesus Rejected at Nazareth

16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read. 17 And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,[j]
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.[k]
20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing. 22 So all bore witness to Him, and marveled at the gracious words which proceeded out of His mouth. And they said, Is this not Josephs son?


23 He said to them, You will surely say this proverb to Me, Physician, heal yourself! Whatever we have heard done in Capernaum,[l] do also here in Your country. 24 Then He said, Assuredly, I say to you, no prophet is accepted in his own country. 25 But I tell you truly, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, and there was a great famine throughout all the land; 26 but to none of them was Elijah sent except to Zarephath,[m] in the region of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow. 27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet, and none of them was cleansed except Naaman the Syrian.


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Unread 8th October 2013, 07:36 PM
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Take your Isaiah prophecies and go to 2 Kings 16 and read on.
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Unread 8th October 2013, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ebedmelech View Post
Take your Isaiah prophecies and go to 2 Kings 16 and read on.
Did - long ago (as well as the entire text of I-II Kings on the ways the Lord raised up Aram and used it for His Glory - alongside using Syria). II Kings 16 does not in any way address the whole of what Isaiah or other scriptures say whatsoever. One should read the whole of Isaiah as well as the rest of II Kings and scripture when it comes to Syria.
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Unread 8th October 2013, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Gxg (G) View Post
Did - long ago (as well as the entire text of I-II Kings on the ways the Lord raised up Aram and used it for His Glory - alongside using Syria). II Kings 16 does not in any way address the whole of what Isaiah or other scriptures say whatsoever. One should read the whole of Isaiah as well as the rest of II Kings and scripture when it comes to Syria.
That's the problem...it was long ago and it will not happen again. Isaiah tells you who he prophesied to and when it was...however if you want to ignore that...go right ahead.

Isaiah 1:1
The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz concerning Judah and Jerusalem, which he saw during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

You have no warrant to project this prophecy onto the 21st century Damascus because Isaiah has told you when it applies.
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Unread 8th October 2013, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ebedmelech View Post
That's the problem...it was long ago and it will not happen again. Isaiah tells you who he prophesied to and when it was...however if you want to ignore that...go right ahead.

Isaiah 1:1
The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz concerning Judah and Jerusalem, which he saw during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah..
You have no warrant to project this prophecy onto the 21st century Damascus because Isaiah has told you when it applies
None of that is in any way dealing with the text nor the concept of prophecy being both present and future. That's basic in dealing with eschatology - and thus, for anyone universally assuming all things occurred (As goes Full Preterism in many respects), that's their choice. It already ignores scripture - and quoting Isaiah 1:1 doesn't show at any point where any prophesies were not for 21st century seeing how that was dealing with the 1st chapter addressing those in that era as well as others - with prophecies seen during the reigns of others pertaining to the future since prophecies spoken concernin Judah and Jerusalem were also in regards to their future with other nations (be it in that era or later). To assume Isaiah isn't to be applied to the 21st century is your own assumption..in the same way others assume that all prophecies made by the prophets - be it major (i.e. Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, etc.) or minor (i.e. Zechariah, Joel, etc.) - were all fulfilled before the 1st century.

One loses all rights talking on what Isaiah can or cannot speak on when it comes to ignoring the way prophecy was understood in the Judaic background of the 1st century with it applying to the future of yet-to-come events - including prophecies made in Isaiah about the MESSIAH and His reign (Isaiah 61 being one amongst many) which are still relevant in light of where they still occur today in the ministry of Christ to the world....and it's the same dynamic with other prophecies Isaiah made to Judah/Jerusalem who were types of the Body of Christ. When a prophecy is said to be fulfilled is very important to know in determining what events fulfill the prophecy. Time indicators can tell us if the prophecy is going to be fulfilled in the distant future or in the near future. Sometimes a prophecys fulfillment is open ended.

One can see this basic when it comes to things such as "The Day of the Lord is near" commentary in Isaiah and other prophectic texts. For the Day of the Lord refers to Gods special interventions into the course of world events to judge His enemies, accomplish His purpose for history, and thereby demonstrate who He is the sovereign God of the universe (Isa. 2:12; Ezek. 13:5, 9, 14, 2223; 30:3, 8, 19, 2526). The evidence for this significance of the Day of the Lord is found in references in the Scriptures to past Days of the Lord..and the Bible indicates that there have been several past Days of the Lord in which God exercised and demonstrated His sovereign judgment on other nations. For He raised up Assyria to judge the northern kingdom of Israel during the 700s B.C. (Amos 5:18, 20), Babylon to judge the southern kingdom of Judah during the 600s and 500s B.C. (Lam. 1:12; 2:1, 2122; Ezek. 7:19; 13:5; Zeph. 1:713; 2:23), Babylon to judge Egypt and its allies during the 500s B.C. (Jer. 46:10; Ezek. 30:3), and Medo-Persia to judge Babylon during the 500s B.C. (Isa. 13:6, 9) - and yet many things spoken in their day which seemed to have an IMMEDIATE fulfillment (as was the case with the Prophet Joel prophesing in Joel 2) found their fulfillment many centuries later (like with Peter quoting a passage from Joel to discuss Pentecost - or Paul referencing Hosea to discuss the Gentiles being brought to be a part of God's Body of Israel.....even though the original context he spoke in with Romans 11 did not literally show the prophecy of Hosea to be the EXACT same as what Hosea prophesied).

On that issue, this is a basic concept when it comes to the reality of why the Apostles quoted scripture often as they did. Paul read, used, and interpreted the Hebrew Scriptures in ways common to his day, age, and culture but he now saw, through the grace of God, that Jesus Christ, Gods Messiah, was the focal point of the entire story. Paul reads everything through Christ...as seen in how Paul quotes Isaiah 49:8 in 2 Cor 6:2. But Pauls reading and use of Isaiahs words is not bound by the original intent of the prophet or the context of the original audience. Paul transforms the words of Isaiah to speak into a new situation. Paul saw what Isaiah did not, that all of Gods saving activity through history is ultimately. embodied somehow in the death and resurrection of Christ - and Paul expresses that conviction by fostering a deep theological connection between the two events of deliverance from Babylon and resurrection of Christ

We see the same dynamic with Paul in his quoting of Hosea - as Pauls use of Hosea in Romans 9:25-26 is analogical in nature......a matter of Paul drawing a comparison /analogy between the calling of Gentiles from unbelief and the restoration of Israel from exile and judgment. ..for just as God can bring Israel back from the dead, he can also call Gentiles to new life. What is occurring is that Paul is not choosing to go for reinterpreting these verses in Hosea - but rather, Paul is drawing a parallel between the future restoration of the Jews and the present salvation of the Gentiles in order to highlight the graciousness of God toward those who have no claim on His mercy. It is a matter of the apostle underscoring a point of continuity between these two distinct situations without equating them or suggesting that one fulfills the prediction of the other. While Paul applies promises of Israels restoration to Gentiles in Romans 9:2526, he does so not to include Gentiles in his concept of Israel, but rather to explain something that is true of both the future restoration of Israel and the present salvation of Gentiles. In the original context these passages from Hosea refer to the spiritual restoration of Israel. But Paul finds in them the principle that God is a saving, forgiving, restoring God, who delights to take those who are not my people and make them my people. An Paul then applies this principle to Gentiles, whom God makes his people by sovereignly grafting them into covenant relationship (more shared in Paul's Use of the Old Testament in Romans 9:25-26 and Did Paul Misinterpret the Old Testament - Audio ).


We see the same dynamic in Galatians. For there, in Galatians 3:15-29, Paul uses a play on words to make a theological point - as he intentionally twists around the singular and plural nature of the collective noun seed. The promise to Abraham was that he would be the father of a great nation.
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say and to seeds, meaning many people, but and to your seed, meaning one person, who is Christ. (Gal 3:16 NIV)
However, Gen 13:16 has God telling Abraham And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. (KJV)...so clearly the intent of seed here is plural. The entire point of the promise is that the offspring will be many, not one.....and yet Paul exploits the singular form of seed to argue that the promise to Abraham was for one son, not many, and that that son was Christ....a point not surprising when seeing the Christ-centered theology throughout his writing in Jesus, Israels story finds its completion, its end point.

The same dynamic is also seen elsewhere. Romans 11:26-27 has Paul quoting Isaiah 59:20..where he says, "As it is written: The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob"

And yet, both the Septuagint and the Hebrew clearly state that the redeemer will come to Zion in Isaiah 59:20-21. Pauls creative citation of Isaiah has ample precedent in the ancient world, where texts were mined and adjusted to allow alternate meanings of the text to emerge.

As Peter Enns excellent book, Inspiration and Incarnation notes well, biblical interpreters exhibit for us an attitude toward biblical interpretation that operates on very different standards from those of modern interpreters. ...They were not motivated to reproduce the intention of the original human author.... They were much more concerned to dig beneath the surface to reveal things "


If one looks at Isaiahs prophecies literally and compare them to history, they'll see that while some of them have been fulfilled, others were only partially fulfilled and still others not at all. For an example of a partial fulfillment read Isaiah 9:6-7. In this prophecy the child was born and the Son was given, but the rest awaits a future fulfillment. And for one that hasnt been fulfilled at all, read Isaiah 2:1-5. In the first place Isaiah identified the prophecy as referring to the End Times. And in the second, theres never been a time in history when this statement has been literally true..

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Originally Posted by ebedmelech View Post
That's the problem...it was long ago and it will not happen again. Isaiah tells you who he prophesied to and when it was...however if you want to ignore that...go right ahead.

Isaiah 1:1
The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz concerning Judah and Jerusalem, which he saw during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

You have no warrant to project this prophecy onto the 21st century Damascus because Isaiah has told you when it applies.
Discussing the "Who?" and "When?" are not the same as saying that the prophecy/content thereof was meant to be seen as being FULFILLED in that time at all points - as it's like a Church receiving a prophecy with it being written down ....the "Who?" being the name of the Church spoken to and the "When" being the time it was spoken (i.e. Date, location, temperature, etc.) - even though the content of the prophecy itself was applied to the future and not literally fulfilled. This is why it is noted that prophecy itself within Isaiah was not something that was fully fulfilled - and it takes a lot in trying To understand God's Word with Isaiah's Unfulfilled Prophecies.

For another, in Luke 4 it says this:
16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Isaiah was written,

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath 18 The The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.


20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.



The quote Christ noted is from Isaiah 61:1-2. However, open Isaiah 61 and notice that Jesus stopped reading halfway through verse 2 - as the second half of the verse describes "the day of vengeance," which is still in the future! Jesus only fulfilled the first part of the verse, "proclaiming the acceptable year of the Lord," at his 1st coming. He will fulfill the 2nd half of the verse at his 2nd coming.

However, what you have are several prophecies in the old testament that have not been fulfilled YET. But one can safely rest assured that those prophecies will be fulfilled someday in the future.
And as said in the OP, the prophecies concerning Assyria being called "The Work of God's Hands"/the Lord redeeming it fully have yet to have been seen as fulfilled in history. And there are many Biblical reasons behind why others have noted that the Lord still has things to come. One's eschatological standpoint will make a difference in how that occurs - as there are many schools of thought .....one solid one being Apostolic Premillennialism..different from other forms of pre-millennialism (and based more so on the Christ Victor view) by it being more optimistic with the end times more focused on the Apostolic character of the church that is supposed to be coming. ...

With Isaiah 17, although there are prophecies that have YET to be fulfilled, the prophecy concerning Damascus seems to have already taken place several times - and others (who are Partial Preterists) have given good reasons for such:
That said, hopefully you have some better arguments than the ones given thus far...
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Originally Posted by Gxg (G) View Post
Discussing the "Who?" and "When?" are not the same as saying that the prophecy/content thereof was meant to be seen as being FULFILLED in that time at all points - as it's like a Church receiving a prophecy with it being written down ....the "Who?" being the name of the Church spoken to and the "When" being the time it was spoken (i.e. Date, location, temperature, etc.) - even though the content of the prophecy itself was applied to the future and not literally fulfilled. This is why it is noted that prophecy itself within Isaiah was not something that was fully fulfilled - and it takes a lot in trying To understand God's Word with Isaiah's Unfulfilled Prophecies.
Indeed it is except that the prophecy demonstrates itself beyond that. Now, you say it was not fulfilled but Isaiah clearly states he prophesied during the reign of 4 kings of Judah. As you read 2 Kings it's irrefutable that they were fulfilled.


Originally Posted by Gxg (G) View Post
For another, in Luke 4 it says this:
16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Isaiah was written,

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath 18 The The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.


20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.



The quote Christ noted is from Isaiah 61:1-2. However, open Isaiah 61 and notice that Jesus stopped reading halfway through verse 2 - as the second half of the verse describes "the day of vengeance," which is still in the future! Jesus only fulfilled the first part of the verse, "proclaiming the acceptable year of the Lord," at his 1st coming. He will fulfill the 2nd half of the verse at his 2nd coming.
Indeed. It's obvious Jesus is fulfilling a prophecy of Isaiah...yet when you go back and read that prophecy it's obvious within it's context it was messianic, so if you go back to Isaiah 61 this is obvious...why? beacuse it clearly says it after the return of the exiles and rebuilding of Jerusalem...you can't miss it holding context and understanding the history.
Originally Posted by Gxg (G) View Post
However, what you have are several prophecies in the old testament that have not been fulfilled YET. But one can safely rest assured that those prophecies will be fulfilled someday in the future.
Originally Posted by Gxg (G) View Post
And as said in the OP, the prophecies concerning Assyria being called "The Work of God's Hands"/the Lord redeeming it fully have yet to have been seen as fulfilled in history. And there are many Biblical reasons behind why others have noted that the Lord still has things to come. One's eschatological standpoint will make a difference in how that occurs - as there are many schools of thought .....one solid one being Apostolic Premillennialism”..different from other forms of pre-millennialism (and based more so on the Christ Victor view) by it being more optimistic with the end times — more focused on the Apostolic character of the church that is supposed to be coming. ...

With Isaiah 17, although there are prophecies that have YET to be fulfilled, the prophecy concerning Damascus seems to have already taken place several times - and others (who are Partial Preterists) have given good reasons for such:
That said, hopefully you have some better arguments than the ones given thus far...
Actually when you understand them...you don't. Hopefully you will not continue to ignore history nor the language of prophecy. Isaiah 17 was definitely fulfilled...but rather than try and convince you...when you see it NOT happen...talk to Jesus about it in eternity...He'll tell you "Isaaih 17 was fulfilled when the Medes took down Babylon when Daniel prophesied the writing on the wall to Belshazzar. The Medes conquered Babylon that night".

Now...we don't have to debate this...let's just wait and see....
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Unread 9th October 2013, 04:46 AM
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Gxg (G) said in post 1:

It's sad to see the way that many Evangelical Christians celebrate the destruction of other nations in the name of supporting Israel and yet no one considers the ways that the Gospel is neglected - as well as not truly seeing people as the Lord does.
Damascus could be nuked by Israel during a future all-out war (Isaiah 17:1). Yet this war will also break the power of Israel (Isaiah 17:4).

One way this double-edged war could happen is the U.S. could build up the Iraqi Army until it's huge enough and well-equipped enough to serve as a proxy army, for the U.S. and Israel, for an all-out ground invasion of Iran, in order to end Iran's nuclear weapons program and extremist regime. As part of the buildup of the Iraqi Army, the U.S. could reinstall some of the former Baathist military hierarchy to run the Iraqi Army more efficiently and ruthlessly. And if the current Shiite-dominated government of Iraq balks at any invasion of fellow-Shiite Iran, this could lead the CIA, the Mossad, and possibly also (Sunni Arab) Saudi Intelligence, to bring about a Baathist coup d'etat in Iraq. For all 3 of these intelligence agencies would love for Iraq to attack their common mortal foe Iran, and the Iraqi Baathists could agree to do this, for they see non-Arab Iran as a great enemy of Arab autonomy.

To help get the Iraqi masses and the world behind the idea of an all-out Iraqi invasion of Iran, false-flag operations could be managed by the CIA and the Mossad by which it will be made to seem that (non-Arab, Persian) Iran is attacking the Iraqi Sunni Arabs and their little children terroristically with "dirty bombs" made from Iranian-enriched uranium, so that the Iraqi Arab masses will become enraged and begin to call for all-out retaliation against (what they could call) "the vile Persians". And the world could see an Iraqi invasion of Iran as being completely justified by self-defense.

But then, right when Iraq is all ready to invade Iran, the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel (who by that time could be led by a false Messiah) could destroy the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest sites in Islam) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, to prepare the site for the building of a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). This could so enrage Muslims worldwide, including the (Muslim) Iraqi Army, that the Iraqi Baathist Generals could see it as a perfect excuse to abandon the plan to invade huge Iran, and instead (pretending that they're doing so in the name of Islam) turn and send their vast army against the little territory of Israel, completely defeating it (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

But this wouldn't be the ultimate reason for the Baathist attack, which could continue on south to also defeat and occupy Egypt (Daniel 11:15). For Egypt is ruled by the U.S.-supported Egyptian Army, which the Baathists could see as being a puppet of the U.S., just as they could see Israel as being a colony of the U.S. Baathism's ultimate aim is to unite all Arab lands from Oman to Morocco into one massive, powerful United Arab States free of all foreign hegemony.

The all-out Iraqi attack on Israel could be joined by the entire (Baathist) Syrian Army (with all of its missiles, many tipped with nerve agents), as well as by all of Iran's long-range missiles and all of Hezbollah's and Hamas' missiles and guerrillas. Israel could find itself suddenly attacked from 3 directions at the same time, with tens of thousands of missiles raining down on its cities and military bases, and tens of thousands of Iraqi tanks (meant to defeat and occupy huge Iran) pouring across its borders. As Israel starts to see its little sliver of land completely overrun, and sees that its total defeat is imminent and assured, in retaliation it could drop nuclear bombs on Baghdad, Damascus (Isaiah 17:1), Tehran, and other major cities of Iraq, Syria, and Iran.

There could be so many nuclear explosions sending so much radioactive dust and ash so high into the atmosphere that it could be blown eastward and fall on hugely-populated South Asia, ruining so many crop fields and immune systems there with radiation that 1/4 of the world's population could end up dying from the war and its aftermath of famines and epidemics. This could fulfill the horrible war which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. This war could be blamed not only on the "religious fundamentalism" of Islam and Judaism, but also on religious fundamentalism in general, and so could lead to a worldwide crusade against all forms of religious fundamentalism, including Christian fundamentalism, i.e. the (correct) idea that the Bible is wholly true (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4) and that all other religions are cursed (Galatians 1:8-9, John 14:6, John 3:36, Acts 4:12).

After an Iraqi Baathist General who could lead the defeat and occupation of Israel and Egypt mysteriously disappears from the scene (Daniel 11:19), the Antichrist, who could be an Arab, could arise peacefully out of Lebanon (from the modern city of Tyre: Ezekiel 28:2; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:4), and he could take up the mantle of Baathism and vow to (in his words) "complete the great work of Arab liberation and unification". The first thing that the Antichrist could do once he's given control (Daniel 11:21) of a Baathist confederation of Iraq, Syria, Egypt, and a "United Palestine" (i.e. a defeated Israel), is to perform a small and localized attack against an army of ultra-Orthodox Jews holed up in the walled Old City of Jerusalem and led by an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Messiah (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:22). They could have managed to hold off the first Baathist attack even as it overran the rest of Israel, because the walled Old City of Jerusalem is considered holy to the Muslims, and so it's not to be bombarded or destroyed. The Antichrist could manage in some way to take the Old City without doing it much harm.

Then, instead of executing all the ultra-Orthodox Jews and their false Messiah, the Antichrist will do an amazing thing. He will "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false Messiah (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23), permitting them to keep a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1) which they will have built on the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem, and to keep control of the Old City, for at least 7 more years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. By this peace treaty, the Antichrist could present himself to the world as (in his words): "A reasonable man, a man of peace. I am no Hitler. I do not desire a second Holocaust. I am willing to give the religious Jews in the Old City seven years to show that they are willing to live peacefully with others, that they are different than the Zionist Jews who have just destroyed the world with their nuclear weapons".

And if the Antichrist gets flak from his fellow Baathists for letting the ultra-Orthodox Jews keep the Old City of Jerusalem, he could explain to them privately that (in his words) "It's all a temporary ruse, meant to keep world opinion off guard while we consolidate our position". The Baathists could consolidate their position by becoming so well dug-in, and so well equipped and advised militarily by the Russians (in the name of "Arab self-determination"), that a U.S. counter-attack to "restore" (i.e. to take back) Israel and Egypt could fail, and leave the Baathists in control, and in a position to extend their power over all the rest of the Arab nations. For if the Baathists defeat Israel, they will be hailed by the Arab masses as magnificent heroes, so that the Baathists could have no problem persuading the Arab masses to support them. And the Baathists could justify their defeat of the Egyptian military regime, and then their subsequent defeat of other regimes such as in Jordan, by railing against them as being (what they could call):

"These vile cronies of the Americans. These cronies pretended to be for the Arab people while in fact they were taking American bribes in the billions, completely selling out our Palestinian brothers to the endless cruelties of the Zionist occupation, and keeping you, the great majority of the Arab people, in poverty. These cronies, like the Zionists themselves, were the American bulwarks against our glorious Arab unification and return to world power. Join now with us, the Baathists, that we might bring about the long-awaited Arab Renaissance, the long-awaited Arab Resurrection [the Arab word 'Baath' can mean 'Renaissance' and 'Resurrection'], that we Arabs might all rise up together and unite, from Oman to Morocco, into one great United Arab States, one great Arab Empire, shaking off completely all the shackles of the West, placed upon us so long ago, and return to our former glory as we had during the Middle Ages, when we were free and far superior to the West".

The Baathists could also rail against the kings and sheikhs of the Arab Gulf States for (in their words) "hoarding the huge oil wealth given by Allah to all the Arabs, and keeping the Arab masses in poverty and subjugation to Western interests". The Baathists are socialist, and so could call for the distribution of the Arab oil wealth to the Arab masses (Daniel 11:24). In this way, and by their defeat of Israel, the Baathists could easily turn the masses to their side in every Arab nation.

During the first few years of the 7-year peace treaty referred to earlier, the Antichrist could employ Baathism as the means by which he will gradually and peacefully put together a United Arab States, or Arab Union, stretching from Oman to Morocco. Once he has accomplished this, he could then begin to downplay Baathism and start speaking of "world peace and the unity of mankind". He could convince an oil-thirsty European Union to let the oil-rich Arab Union join it, thereby forming a massive Mediterranean Union, which he could manage to peacefully gain control of and use as his base of power to eventually exert his hegemony over the entire earth (Revelation 13:7b).

Then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break it, attack the 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices offered in front of it, and sit (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). He will then rule the whole earth by the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon: Revelation 12:9) for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:14), or 1,260 literal days (Revelation 12:6). The return of Jesus Christ from heaven (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16) may not occur immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign are over, but could occur 75 days later, on the 1,335th day after the Antichrist and his followers set up the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Daniel 12:11-12, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15). The 75 days could be taken up by the vials of God's wrath which will be poured out on the Antichrist's worshippers (Revelation 16).

When Jesus returns, he will completely defeat the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9), and he will have Satan bound in the bottomless pit (Revelation 20:1-3). Then the returned Jesus and the bodily resurrected church (including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist) will reign physically on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:8-21).
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