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  #71  
Unread 22nd August 2013, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by NorrinRadd View Post
I agree there is need to repent (turn, convert) -- turn from being a sinner, AND turn from "dead works," i.e. from thinking any of our efforts can please God. We turn away from these things, to Christ.

I still haven't seen where we are told we must "ask" God for His forgiveness.
James 5
15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed.


Luke 18
13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast,saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other

1 John 1:9

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Acts 19:18

18 Also many of those who were now believers came, confessing and divulging their practices.
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  #72  
Unread 22nd August 2013, 11:06 PM
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We all have one of two destinies from which to choose.
One is everlasting punishment, the other is life eternal.

We are not universalists here on this forum. Salvation is by grace, and works do not save us, but grace does. The grace is not given to all, Buddhists, muslim, etc... it is activated by a change in the heart, that the Bible calls 'repentance'. Repentance is not a work, it is a change of heart toward sin, recognizing sin as sin.

Matthew 25:46 (KJV)
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Some will not make it... no universalism taught in the Bible, it is not grace without repentance... for it is the repentant to Jesus, believing in Him, that brings salvation. Those who do not have a change of mind toward sin, who do not then choose Jesus are heading to EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT.

John 5:28-29 (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Galatians 6:8-9 (KJV)
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.


Up until a person’s physical death, the road to their destiny, can be changed.

It takes faith in the Lord, leading us to repentance of our sins.

Luke 13:3-5 (KJV)
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.


John 3:16-21 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Acts 3:19 (KJV)
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

1 John 1:9 (KJV)
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Repentance happens in the heart, the 'confessing' of our sins is done to God, asking Him for forgiveness for the sins we now (since repentance) realize were offensive and wrong to God.

The gate is a ‘strait gate’, the Greek word ‘stenos’ meaning ‘narrow’. This is a gate that leads to the road to heaven, and it is ‘strait’ in that, few will attempt to enter through it. It has few ‘takers’.

Comparing the easy, broad, way that leads to destruction, the appearance of the ease of the travel in that road seems so preferable to many.



The other road to travel is "wide" and "broad is the way", referring to the sinful life of the wicked. It is easier to be revengeful, greedy, than to walk the way of the golden rule. That broad way "leadeth to destruction". The destruction does not come until the end of the trip.

Romans 6:16-18 (KJV)
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.


The only way to cancel our trip to destruction, is to turn to our merciful Savior.

Acts 26:18 (KJV)
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.



Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way,
which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


Few... find it.


What a horrible fact. Some teach that all will be saved.

That is a false doctrine called ‘universalism.’
If you can't repent to be saved, if you don't confess your sins and ask for forgiveness to be saved, then all must be saved... for most every sinner I know qualifies... but.. UNIVERSALISM is an evil doctrine...

Jesus says that the way is ‘narrow’ and ‘few’ travel that road.

John 15:5-6 (KJV)
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.


Some want to deny what Jesus says here.

They claim to believe God would not ‘damn’ anyone.

He does not choose to damn anyone.

He is ‘not willing any to perish.’

Yet, some will go against all Jesus did in coming to this sinful world and dying for our sins. Many reject Him and His salvation.

We are told to 'repent'... and when we do, if our mind is changed toward sin, the natural thing to do, is 'confess to God our sin, and He cleanses us and forgives us when we ask.
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  #73  
Unread 22nd August 2013, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Frogster View Post

well..again, if he were sure, why ask if they failed the test?

he was saying don't you know he is supposed to be in you.

5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

and he thought they might fail, otherwise why say this?

13:10 For this reason I write these things while I am away from you, that when I come I may not have to be severe in my use of the authority that the Lord has given me for building up and not for tearing down.

they needed to be???

13:11 Finally, brothers,[a] rejoice. Aim for restoration, comfort one another, agree with one another, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.

then we still got that reconciled word from 5.
I don't see it that way. This is not the only place he qualifies his remarks. He does it quite regularly concerning Christ actually. Look at Romans 8. Same basic concept. He doesn't say you are supposed to have Christ in you. He says you do have Christ in you, unless you don't actually believe.

The problem is parts of Christianity fail to see the paramount Importance of how God works in our lives through Grace and faith. What we believe dictates how we view ourselves which dictates what we do and how we treat others. Paul is aware of this but doesn't conclude they are not saved because they are immoral.

What he does do is tell them to examine themselves and see if their actions line up with the reality of their faith (Christ lives in you). Then he offers an appropriate caveat of unless they don't actually believe the Gospel. (It is like a disclaimer at the bottom of a letter that says, if such exceptions apply, then disregard, this doesn't apply to you)

Otherwise every time you sin you should be calling your salvation into question and not making excuses like...oh but my sin wasn't as bad as someone else's sin...they are lost because they sin more consistently but I am saved because I don't sin as bad as they do or I repented and now I am living right so God accepts me again.

Paul lays all this out in Romans. Should we sin so Grace can abound, absolutely not, but make no mistake, when a Christian (someone who believes the gospel/trusts in the sufficiency of Christ) does sin, Grace most certainly does always abound because the grace of God is greater than our sins.

There are two things we shouldn't do.

1. Use grace as a license to sin.

2. Use sin as a license to say that Christ's sacrifice is not fully sufficient for every believers right standing with God and their offenses of sin, past, present and future.

Both are a failure to see the great love God has for us in Christ and what He has done for us.

Last edited by The Unforgettable Fire; 22nd August 2013 at 11:30 PM.
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  #74  
Unread 23rd August 2013, 12:51 AM
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Why the big blast against Universalism? Has someone been advocating that belief? I've missed those posts.
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  #75  
Unread 23rd August 2013, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by NorrinRadd View Post
Why the big blast against Universalism? Has someone been advocating that belief? I've missed those posts.

On this forum, if one advocates UNIVERSALISM, they are breaking a firm rule against it... it has no place here. So, without mentioning the word, some will come and advocate part after part of that belief.

If one does not need to repent to be saved, if one does not need to change their mind toward sin (that is what repentance is), if no sins need repented or no forgiveness for sin needs asked... then, one iota from that is 'all then are saved.'

If the sin of adultery needs not confessed, then the sin of worshipping Buddha needs not confessed... if God is 'not willing any perish' they all are saved, if that means that nothing needs done...

God is not determining who is going to perish, He does not choose to doom anyone... that is the meaning of 'God is not willing that any perish', but He does want all to repent... and after salvation, murder is still murder, and if a Christian murders someone, they still need to repent...

The UNIVERSALIST HERESY is that all are saved... nothing needs done, no repentance... despite tons of verses that contradict universalism.

Some have openly stated their UNIVERSALIST leanings, and some come back with a different NAME and slyly try to get doctrines perverted so they can have converts from ORTHODOX Christianity, to their UNIVERSALIST HERESY.

Name changes... yes, like in that other thread about that, this is one reason some do it...

HAVE I ANSWERED THE QUESTION WELL ENOUGH... OR DO I NEED TO GO ON AND SHOW MORE PASSAGES THAT TEACH THE ORTHODOX TEACHING THAT REPENTANCE AND FORGIVENESS OF SINS THROUGH THE BLOOD OF JESUS is the way of salvation?

Not everyone defines 'hyper grace' that way, but to a universalist, hyper grace is all are going to heaven... all are saved.. and all have grace regardless of repentance, forgiveness of sins... Some here define it differently, but some UNIVERSALISTS will try to make converts here.. That is against the forum rules ... so they don't use the word 'universalism' hoping no one will notice.

Last edited by murjahel; 23rd August 2013 at 09:26 AM.
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  #76  
Unread 23rd August 2013, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by The Unforgettable Fire View Post
I don't see it that way. This is not the only place he qualifies his remarks. He does it quite regularly concerning Christ actually. Look at Romans 8. Same basic concept. He doesn't say you are supposed to have Christ in you. He says you do have Christ in you, unless you don't actually believe.

The problem is parts of Christianity fail to see the paramount Importance of how God works in our lives through Grace and faith. What we believe dictates how we view ourselves which dictates what we do and how we treat others. Paul is aware of this but doesn't conclude they are not saved because they are immoral.

What he does do is tell them to examine themselves and see if their actions line up with the reality of their faith (Christ lives in you). Then he offers an appropriate caveat of unless they don't actually believe the Gospel. (It is like a disclaimer at the bottom of a letter that says, if such exceptions apply, then disregard, this doesn't apply to you)

Otherwise every time you sin you should be calling your salvation into question and not making excuses like...oh but my sin wasn't as bad as someone else's sin...they are lost because they sin more consistently but I am saved because I don't sin as bad as they do or I repented and now I am living right so God accepts me again.

Paul lays all this out in Romans. Should we sin so Grace can abound, absolutely not, but make no mistake, when a Christian (someone who believes the gospel/trusts in the sufficiency of Christ) does sin, Grace most certainly does always abound because the grace of God is greater than our sins.

There are two things we shouldn't do.

1. Use grace as a license to sin.

2. Use sin as a license to say that Christ's sacrifice is not fully sufficient for every believers right standing with God and their offenses of sin, past, present and future.

Both are a failure to see the great love God has for us in Christ and what He has done for us.
Yes, i am sure we are very close on grace, and security..

I just am saying is that some, the minority of the church, in my opinion, Paul did not think they were saved, the majority repented, and were back with paul. But there was a minority left still, those whom he was coming to confront said with strong language. The majority proves there was still a minority.


2 Cor 2:6 For such a one, this punishment by the majority is enough,

The reconciled word with paul is always used as a deciding factor with salvation, so it should be figured likewise in 2 Cor 5:20


20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.


The verse before shows unreconciled, still have trespasses in their account, as per the unsaved.



19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.


The usage in these verses also, they are about salvation, clearly showing that the reconciling, is when one is saved, unreconciled people are not, as per Rom 5, they are still enemies, and...these verses show the salvific usage of the reconcile word.


Eph 2:16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.



Col 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,



Frog.
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  #77  
Unread 23rd August 2013, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by murjahel View Post

On this forum, if one advocates UNIVERSALISM, they are breaking a firm rule against it... it has no place here. So, without mentioning the word, some will come and advocate part after part of that belief.

If one does not need to repent to be saved, if one does not need to change their mind toward sin (that is what repentance is), if no sins need repented or no forgiveness for sin needs asked... then, one iota from that is 'all then are saved.'

If the sin of adultery needs not confessed, then the sin of worshipping Buddha needs not confessed... if God is 'not willing any perish' they all are saved, if that means that nothing needs done...

God is not determining who is going to perish, He does not choose to doom anyone... that is the meaning of 'God is not willing that any perish', but He does want all to repent... and after salvation, murder is still murder, and if a Christian murders someone, they still need to repent...

The UNIVERSALIST HERESY is that all are saved... nothing needs done, no repentance... despite tons of verses that contradict universalism.

Some have openly stated their UNIVERSALIST leanings, and some come back with a different NAME and slyly try to get doctrines perverted so they can have converts from ORTHODOX Christianity, to their UNIVERSALIST HERESY.

Name changes... yes, like in that other thread about that, this is one reason some do it...

HAVE I ANSWERED THE QUESTION WELL ENOUGH... OR DO I NEED TO GO ON AND SHOW MORE PASSAGES THAT TEACH THE ORTHODOX TEACHING THAT REPENTANCE AND FORGIVENESS OF SINS THROUGH THE BLOOD OF JESUS is the way of salvation?

Not everyone defines 'hyper grace' that way, but to a universalist, hyper grace is all are going to heaven... all are saved.. and all have grace regardless of repentance, forgiveness of sins... Some here define it differently, but some UNIVERSALISTS will try to make converts here.. That is against the forum rules ... so they don't use the word 'universalism' hoping no one will notice.
Snippy Snippy.

To say one simply has to believe to be saved and that repentance (in its commonly accepted context) is not a prerequisite, does not equate to universalism. I know you feel it inevitably must, but that is just your point of view.
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Unread 23rd August 2013, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by JimB View Post
Have you noticed the new smear word. It’s the prefix “hyper.” Just put “hyper” in front of a word and you instantly demean it. Like hyper-faith (I know, I know, I’ve been guilty), hyper-Calvinist, hyper-Arminian, hyper-emotional, hyper-legalism, hyper-religious, hyper-whatever. Well, there’s a new one—hyper-grace. I just read an article from Charisma Magazine e:newsletter: “Hypergrace Movement Leaves Follower Questioning God’s Existence” (article here). It’s as if accepting, living, and sharing grace is the first step toward unbelief. Actually, I thought it was the other way around. I thought where sin increased, grace abounded more. Silly me.

So, do you think it is possible to overdo the message of grace? If so, how?
Using the term "hyper-grace" or "greasy grace" is simply a way that people who promote salvation by works use in an attempt to humiliate people who do not agree with them .
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Unread 23rd August 2013, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Frogster View Post

Yes, i am sure we are very close on grace, and security..

I just am saying is that some, the minority of the church, in my opinion, Paul did not think they were saved, the majority repented, and were back with paul. But there was a minority left still, those whom he was coming to confront said with strong language. The majority proves there was still a minority.

2 Cor 2:6 For such a one, this punishment by the majority is enough,

The reconciled word with paul is always used as a deciding factor with salvation, so it should be figured likewise in 2 Cor 5:20

20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

The verse before shows unreconciled, still have trespasses in their account, as per the unsaved.

19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

See the usage in these verses also, they are about salvation, clearly showing that the reconciling, is when one is saved, unreconciled people are not, as per Rom 5, they are still enemies, and...these verses show the salvific usage of the reconcile word.

Eph 2:16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

Col 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,

Frog.
I don't think Paul made decisions about people's ultimate salvation. Look at him for example. God supernaturally Intervened with him. I think Paul sees God at work doing that with all eventual believers. So one can't really say what God will do and how or when he will move in a person's life. His job is to spread the Gospel and expound upon it and counsel.

He knows the Gospel is the power with which God changed his life and changes the lives of other believers. He comes with the Gospel and applies the Gospel to everything. That's what he does when he says examine yourself. He applies the gospel by saying Christ is in you. Those who don't believe the Gospel are caught up in the world or legalistic and blind on both accounts.
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Unread 23rd August 2013, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by The Unforgettable Fire View Post
I don't think Paul made decisions about people's ultimate salvation. Look at him for example. God supernaturally Intervened with him. I think Paul sees God at work doing that with all eventual believers. So one can't really say what God will do and how or when he will move in a person's life. His job is to spread the Gospel and expound upon it and counsel.

He knows the Gospel is the power with which God changed his life and changes the lives of other believers. He comes with the Gospel and applies the Gospel to everything. That's what he does when he says examine yourself. He applies the gospel by saying Christ is in you. Those who don't believe the Gospel are caught up in the world or legalistic and blind on both accounts.
look at their unltimate salvation...



2 thess 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from[b] the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,



Col 3:5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming.[c] 7 In these you too once walked, when you were living in them.
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The Holy Spirit came to all of the real sons during the age of grace, through the gospel, not the law. Galatians 3:14, and that is what it is to be a true son of Abraham.



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Last edited by Frogster; 23rd August 2013 at 10:10 AM.
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