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Unorthodox Doctrinal Discussion orthodox and unorthodox Christians only - A forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity (eg. full preterism, unitarianism).

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  #1  
Old 15th August 2013, 11:09 AM
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LDS D&C 130:22 --> Jesus can't indwell us!

D&C 130:22
The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as manís; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.
  • The Holy Spirit is not Flesh and Bones or He COULD NOT INDWELL US.
  • Jesus, the Son, is flesh and bones...
  • Therefore... (the conclusion must be)...Jesus can not indwell us,


=============

Yet the BIBLE
says Christ indwells the believer.

Galatians 2:20
"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the Life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith of the Son of God, Who loved me and gave Himself for me."

Ephesians 3:14-17
"For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from Whom the whole Family in Heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith...".

Colossians 1:27
"To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."

Colossians 3:9-11
"Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the Image of Him Who created him, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all."


========

D&C contradicts the Bible on the indwelling of Christ!
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  #2  
Old 15th August 2013, 11:44 AM
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I was looking for a Canonized Bible verse in which Jesus speaks describing the Father (physical or spiritual) to at least counter Smith's description. I couldn't find one from Christ in Canon.

In the non Canonized scriptures, Jesus goes to great lengths, especially in Secret John. Whether one accepts it or not is up to them. I find it to be more in line as truth for me.

"He is immeasurable light, which is pure, holy (and) immaculate. He is ineffable, being perfect in incorruptibility."

And

"He is not corporeal nor is he incorporeal. He is neither large nor is he small. There is no way to say, 'What is his quantity?' or, 'What is his quality?', for no one can know him."

"He is not someone among (other) beings, rather he is far superior. Not that he is (simply) superior, but his essence does not partake in the aeons nor in time. For he who partakes in an aeon was prepared beforehand. Time was not apportioned to him, since he does not receive anything from another, for it would be received on loan."
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Old 15th August 2013, 12:12 PM
Truth: 1+1=1 and 1+0=0

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Looks like someone pulled the fire alarm lever without just cause. Christ dwells in us all via His light. (John 1:9; D&C 84:45-46)
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Old 15th August 2013, 12:21 PM
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So is Christ flesh and bone or light?

D&C 84:45

45 For the word of the Lord is truth, and whatsoever is truth is light, and whatsoever is light is Spirit, even the Spirit of Jesus Christ.
word of the Lord = truth = light = Spirit = Spirit of Jesus Christ

Seems like this is a reference to the Holy Spirit, no flesh and bones Jesus

John 1:9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Jesus came in flesh and bones. So are his flesh and bones in every man.

It is the logic lever that is askew.
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  #5  
Old 15th August 2013, 12:30 PM
Truth: 1+1=1 and 1+0=0

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Originally Posted by drstevej View Post
So is Christ flesh and bone or light?
Christ is spirit/light/truth, housed in flesh and bone. I have provided supporting references for all these points in this thread.
Originally Posted by drstevej View Post
word of the Lord = truth = light = Spirit = Spirit of Jesus Christ

Seems like this is a reference to the Holy Spirit, no flesh and bones Jesus
The scripture is self-explanatory, and speaks of no one other than Christ.

Originally Posted by drstevej View Post
Jesus came in flesh and bones. So are his flesh and bones in every man.
Did you read the supporting references? If so, did you not take note of the part that says "the Spirit [Jesus Christ] giveth light to every man..."? It does not say "Jesus' flesh and bones give light to every man..."
Originally Posted by drstevej View Post
It is the logic lever that is askew.
I believe what is askew here is your interpretation of the materials provided.

Last edited by TasteForTruth; 15th August 2013 at 05:38 PM.
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Old 15th August 2013, 12:33 PM
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So Jesus is divided:
  • flesh and bone
  • light

I believe what is askew here is your interpretation of the materials provided.
I believe what is askew here is your interpretation.
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  #7  
Old 15th August 2013, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by drstevej View Post
So Jesus is divided:
  • flesh and bone
  • light
No, sir. In the same section (D&C 93), it is revealed that flesh and spirit are not "divided" or "at odds," but that when they are inseparably connected, one may possess a fulness of joy. (vs. 33-35)


Originally Posted by drstevej View Post
I believe what is askew here is your interpretation.
The soundness of my interpretations are self-evident to anyone who actually reads the material I reference. It takes real effort to misunderstand the scriptures I've cited.
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Old 15th August 2013, 02:30 PM
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Word for the Day: Theophany
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Old 15th August 2013, 02:31 PM
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Mormonism rejects John 14:23.


John 14:23—The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal appearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false.
Doctrine and Covenants 130:3

The Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit, which allows Him to dwell in our hearts and communicate directly with our spirits.
Gerald N. Lund, Opening Our Hearts to the Spirit, Ensign, May 2008

Elder David A. Bednar noted the use of the word unto: “Please notice how the power of the Spirit carries the message unto but not necessarily into the heart. … Ultimately, … the content of a message and the witness of the Holy Ghost penetrate into the heart only if a receiver allows them to enter.” 12

Why just unto the heart? Individual agency is so sacred that Heavenly Father will never force the human heart, even with all His infinite power.
Gerald N. Lund, Opening Our Hearts to the Spirit, Ensign, May 2008


Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.
Doctrine and Covenants 8:2

"This man here, another one over there, and a man over in England, are confirmed members of the Church. The question arises, ‘How can the Holy Ghost be with them all at the same time?’ He does not have to be, but the power of the Holy Ghost is such that it can be manifest in every place at the same moment of time…. Thus when it becomes necessary to speak to us, he is able to do so by acting through the other Spirit, that is, through the Light of Christ."
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:38, 40

So the LDS Holy Ghost could actually have a body of flesh and bones because he isn't really going to dwell in all those hearts. That being the case, what is the objection to the Father and Son dwelling in someone's heart?
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Old 15th August 2013, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by TasteForTruth

The soundness of my interpretations are self-evident to anyone who actually reads the material I reference.
Not true
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