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Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum The Endtimes & Prophecy Forum for the discussion of future events. No full preterist views. Partial preterists welcomed.

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  #81  
Unread 15th August 2013, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
It's the origami of passage folding and twisting
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O Lord, + open thou our lips.
And our mouth shall show forth thy praise.
O God, + make speed to save us.
O Lord, make haste to help us.

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  #82  
Unread 15th August 2013, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by MoreCoffee
Sacred scripture is not a puzzle to be pieced together.
Originally Posted by Stryder06 View Post
You've must not study prophecy too often.

It is the glory of God to conceal a thing:
but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
King LLOJ goes out right away to search out the matter!



.
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Colossians 2:14
Having blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances that is against us, that was contrary to us.
And He hath taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
Hebrews 2:14
Therefore then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, and He in like manner did partake to the same.
That thru the death He might take-away the one having the power of the death, that is the Devil


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  #83  
Unread 15th August 2013, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Hentenza View Post
And God has already dealt with Israel. Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians in the 50's so his prophesy spans from that point not before.
Right, and the church has fallen into apostasy since then, unless you believe the mass confusion and plethora of denominations is all apart of God's plan.

The only evidence that your camp can produce is post-reformation while no pre-reformation evidence has been presented. This not a matter of how many people believed it but when they started believing it.
So it's only true if it's been believe for a certain amount of time? Gotcha.

You have not. Presenting Israel as proof of apostasy after the Christian era is presenting the past not the future. You have no proof that a mass apostasy occurred after the Christian era, all of the verbs are future not present or past, and the current state of the churches do not prove a thing since the number of believers have not dropped drastically. Secondly, post-reformation churches merely represent a shift of churches not a shift to apostasy.
You misunderstood me, Israel was an example of how apostasy can happen. I wasn't using them as an example of post crucifixion apostasy. As far as the church today not being an example, I'd beg that you look again. The number of people professing to be Christian is drastically different from the number of people who actually are. And I'm not sure what you mean by a "shift of churches". What's the need for a shift in churches if before that point the church in existence was teaching the truth?
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Isa 24:4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish. 5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
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  #84  
Unread 15th August 2013, 03:02 PM
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O Lord, make haste to help me.

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Originally Posted by Rev Randy View Post
Many chuckles!

Very good
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Christians in Syria and Iraq are suffering, their properties are marked with the Arabic letter NUN as an abbreviation for Nazarene they are commanded to convert to Islam, leave, or be killed.

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  #85  
Unread 15th August 2013, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Stryder06 View Post
Right, and the church has fallen into apostasy since then, unless you believe the mass confusion and plethora of denominations is all apart of God's plan.
Most mainstream churches believe the gospel of Christ. The differences that create denominations is theological differences not Gospel related. Your church is a perfect example.

The church has not fallen into apostasy because Christians are still Christians. Individuals have apostasy but not in masses.




So it's only true if it's been believe for a certain amount of time? Gotcha.
lol No. I know you can read what I write.


You misunderstood me, Israel was an example of how apostasy can happen. I wasn't using them as an example of post crucifixion apostasy. As far as the church today not being an example, I'd beg that you look again. The number of people professing to be Christian is drastically different from the number of people who actually are. And I'm not sure what you mean by a "shift of churches". What's the need for a shift in churches if before that point the church in existence was teaching the truth?
How many people profess to be Christians and are not? You are making assumptions that you can't prove.
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  #86  
Unread 15th August 2013, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Hentenza View Post
Most mainstream churches believe the gospel of Christ. The differences that create denominations is theological differences not Gospel related. Your church is a perfect example.
I disagree. If we're all teaching the same gospel it shouldn't result in different theological stances that result in different churches teaching different truths about the same God.

The church has not fallen into apostasy because Christians are still Christians. Individuals have apostasy but not in masses.
Israel fell into apostasy even though there were still faithful among them. And you have it backwards. There are masses who are in apostasy just as there are masses among them that are faithful to their calling.


lol No. I know you can read what I write.
I most certainly can, and you seem to take exception with beliefs that supposedly weren't around pre-reformation. If that's not taking an issue with a teachings longevity than I don't know what is.

How many people profess to be Christians and are not? You are making assumptions that you can't prove.
Approximately 2+ billion people are considered to be Christian worldwide. Considering that Christ said the wheat would grow with the tare, that the way to life is narrow and few find it, and that many will come to him and say "Lord Lord" but hear "I know you not", and that Paul said in the last days men would not endure sound doctrine, it doesn't take much to realize there are some fakes among us. Throw in again the simple fact that there are a multitude of denominations, as opposed to one front moving forward for Christ, and it's not hard to see that "the church" has fallen off the path.
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Isa 24:4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish. 5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
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  #87  
Unread 15th August 2013, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Stryder06 View Post
I disagree. If we're all teaching the same gospel it shouldn't result in different theological stances that result in different churches teaching different truths about the same God.
So opposing ideas are both true? Doesn't this make truth relative and therefore there is no such thing as truth?
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  #88  
Unread 15th August 2013, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by from scratch View Post
So opposing ideas are both true? Doesn't this make truth relative and therefore there is no such thing as truth?
This is that comprehension problem I was talking about. I'm going to let you read what I wrote again, and then see your response.

Then you can try to figure out how your question is even remotely relative to what I said.
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Isa 24:4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish. 5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
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  #89  
Unread 15th August 2013, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Hentenza View Post
Your research is not complete. As I have shown you are basing your premise on post-reformation teaching and ignoring pre-reformation teaching....
This is not so,

The "let" [Pagan Rome] is clearly identified, from both the early and reformation and that is now established beyond question.

Now let us move to the second point.


Antichristos; ἀντίχριστος : "1) the adversary of the Messiah" [Strong's Concordance] and also "the adversary of the Messiah...of the corrupt power and influence hostile to Christian interests, especially that which is at work in false teachers who have come from the bosom of the church and are disseminating error..." [Thayer's Lexicon] and also "...can mean either "against Christ" or "instead of Christ", or perhaps combining the two, "one who, assuming the guise of Christ, opposes Christ" (Westcott) ... What the Apostle says of him so closely resembles what he says of the first beast in Rev. 13, and what the Apostle Paul says of the Man of Sin in 2 Thess. 2., that the same person seems to be in view in all these passages, rather than the second beast in Rev. 13, the false prophet; for the latter supports the former in all his Antichristian assumptions." [Vine's Expository]

Now, let us look at the word broken down into its components:

Anti; ἀντί: "1) over against, opposite to, before; 2) for, instead of, in place of (something); a) instead of; b) for; c) for that, because; d) wherefore, for this cause" [Strong's Concordance] and also "1) over against, opposite to, before; 2) indicating exchange, succession, for, instead of, in the place of (something), ... e) of succession to the place of another; 3) as a prefix it denotes a) opposite, over against; b) mutual efficiency of two; c) requittal; d) hostile opposition; e) official substitution, instead of" [Thayer's Lexicon] and also "...instead of, in the place of, in the room of..." [Vine's Expository]

Christos; Χριστός: "Christ = "anointed"; 1) Christ was the Messiah, the Son of God; 2) anointed" [Strong's Concordance] and also "anointed" [Thayer's Lexicon] and also "anointed, translates as 'Messiah'" [Vine's Expository] which speaks of Jesus, "the Christ".

For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad. Mark 4:22

Babylon... to Medo/Perisa....
Medo/Perisa... to Greece...
Greece... to Pagan Rome...
Pagan Rome... to Pagan Rome Divided...
Pagan Rome Divided... to Papal Rome...

Papal Rome is the [Greek] Anti-Christos, verily the [Latin] "Vicarius Christi"...

"Antichrist (Greek Anti christos). ... The word Antichrist occurs only in the Johannine Epistles; but there are so-called real parallelisms to these occurrences in the Apocalypse, in the Pauline Epistles, and less explicit ones in the Gospels and the Book of Daniel. ..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "A"; "Antichrist"]

"...anti ... (in the place of...)..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "S"; "Sacrifice"]

"Vicar of Christ (Latin Vicarius Christi). ... thus, Innocent III appeals for his power to remove bishops to the fact that he is Vicar of Christ (cap. "Inter corporalia", 2, "De trans. ep."). ... and states that it is the Roman Pontiff who is "the successor of Peter and the Vicar of Jesus Christ" (cap. "Licet", 4, ibid.). The title Vicar of God used for the pope by Nicholas III (c. "Fundamenta ejus", 17, "De elect.", in 6) is employed as an equivalent for Vicar of Christ" [Online Catholic Encyclopedia, Vicar of Christ]

"Vicar (Latin vicarius, from vice, "instead of") ..." [Online Catholic Encyclopedia, Vicar]

"(Latin Vicarius Christi).

A title of the pope implying his supreme and universal primacy, both of honour and of jurisdiction, over the Church of Christ. ..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "V"; "Vicar of Christ"]

"...2. We, indeed, to all men are the Vicar of Christ, the Son of God ..." [Online Catholic Encyclopedia, In Plurimi; On the Abolition of Slavery; His Holiness Pope Leo XIII; May 5, 1888; To the Bishops of Brazil.]

chi-xi-stigma χξC [600+60+6 = 666] Root word: the G22d (agamos ἄγαμος unmarried, unwedded, single), G14th (agathoergeō ἀγαθοεργέω to work good, to do good, to do well, act rightly) and an obsolete letter (4742 as a cross) of the Greek alphabet (intermediate between the G5th (abba ἀββα Abba = "father") and G6th (Habel Ἅβελ Abel = "vanity (that is: transitory)")) [Strong's Concordance] - Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

So we have even from the numbers, an "unmarried" "father" of [unlasting] "vanity" who claims "to do good".

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? - Matthew 7:22

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.- Matthew 7:23

And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. - Matthew 23:9

There is only one place in all of scripture which gives the title "Holy Father" [John 17:11], yet this very position, the 'pope', claims that appellation for itself:

"VATICAN STATEMENT: "The Holy Father died this evening at 9:37 (1937 GMT) in his private apartment. ... John Paul II ..." - New Advent: "The Holy Father has died"

But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, - Matthew 23:5

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. - Matthew 6:5

But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. - Matthew 6:7

But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men. - Matthew 15:9

Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men. - Mark 7:7

They have "...heaped to themselves teachers..." [2 Timothy 4:3] and "...doctors of the law..." [Luke 5:17].

"...It will be enough, however, to refer to the evidence contained in the epistles of St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, himself a disciple of the Apostles. In these epistles (about A.D. 107) he again and again asserts that the supremacy of the bishop is of Divine institution and belongs to the Apostolic constitution of the Church. He goes so far as to affirm that the bishop stands in the place of Christ Himself. ..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "C"; "Church"]

"...Supreme Pontiff, Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth..." [Roman Catholic Online Library; Church Documents; "Ad Sinarum Gentem (1954)"; Point 11.]

"But since We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty, ..." [“The Great Encyclical Letters of Pope Leo XIII”, Encyclical Letter June 20, 1894]

"All names which in the scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that he is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope." [Cardinal Robert Bellarmine (Full Italian name: Roberto Francesco Romolo Bellarmino (Canonized-1930 and Doctor of the Church (Jesuit))), Disputationes de Controversiis (aka: Disputationes de Controversiis Christianae Fidei adversus hujus temporis Haereticos) [Lectures Concerning the Controversies of the Christian Faith Against the Heretics of This Time], Tom. 2, “Controversia Prima,” Book 2 (De Conciliorum Auctoritate)[“On Authority of the Councils”], Chapter 17, (1628 ed.) Vol. 1, pp. 266-translated]

In Latin: "Secundo probatur ratione, in Scripturis fundata; nam omnia nomina, quae in Scripturis tribuuntur Christo, unde constat eum esse supra Ecclesiam, eadem omnia tribuuntur Pontifici."

"...Ut sicut Beatus Petrus in terris vicarius Filii Dei fuit constitutus, ita et Pontifices eius successores..." [...as the blessed Peter in the vicar of the Son on God on earth was appointed, so the Pontiffs his successors, and..."] [Prompta Bibliotheca Vol. 6, “Papa”, Article 2; pg 41 through [google books pagination]]

Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Acts 20:30

Last edited by Leuko Petra; 15th August 2013 at 11:37 PM.
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Unread 15th August 2013, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Hentenza View Post
Pagan Rome does not equal to Christian Rome. They are different "empires."

As I have already stated, there is no event that shows a mass apostasy from the apostles onward. ...
History testifies to the following:

“Rome's history spans over two and a half thousand years. It was the capital city of the Roman Kingdom, the Roman Republic and the Roman Empire... Since the 1st century AD Rome has been the seat of the Papacy... After the Middle-Ages, Rome was ruled by popes...” - Rome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Constantine did hand over the Lateran Palace to the bishop of Rome...Constantine's legalization of Christianity, combined with the donation of these properties, gave the bishop of Rome an unprecedented level of temporal power..." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constan...ishops_of_Rome

"Plagued by internal instability and attacked by various migrating peoples, the western part of the empire... broke up into independent kingdoms in the 5th century. This disintegration is the landmark historians use to divide the ancient period from the medieval era and the "Dark Ages"." - Ancient Rome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

“476. The Outlook for Rome. The transfer of the emperor's residence to Constantinople was a sad blow to the prestige of Rome, and at the time one might have predicted her speedy decline. But the development of the church, and the growing authority of the Bishop of Rome, or the pope, gave her a new lease on life, and made her again the capital – this time the religious capital – of the civilized world. ...” [A Short History Of Rome; Frank Frost Abbott; Professor In Princeton University; Chicago, Scott, Foresman and Company; Copyright 1906; [aka: “Abbot's ROMAN HISTORY”]; pp. 235-236] - http://books.google.com/books?id=-vs...page&q&f=false

"...UNDER the Roman Empire the popes had no temporal powers. But when the Roman Empire had disintegrated and its place had been taken by a number of rude, barbarous kingdoms, the Roman Catholic church not only became independent of the states in religious affairs but dominated secular affairs as well. At times, under such rulers as Charlemagne ( 768-814), Otto the Great (936-73), and Henry III ( 1039-56), the civil power controlled the church to some extent; but in general, under the weak political system of feudalism, the well organized, unified, and centralized church, with the pope at its head, was not only independent in ecclesiastical affairs but also controlled civil affairs. The church interfered in secular affairs on the basis of its theory of the relation of church and state, which was formulated in substance by Augustine ( 354-430) and given wider and more definite application by such popes as Gregory VII ( 1073-85), Innocent III ( 1198-1216), Boniface VIII ( 1294-1303), and others. 1 ...

... 1 Nys, "Le droit international et la papauté," Revue de droit international, X ( 1878), 505-14; Jarrige, La condition internationale du Saint-Siège avant et après les accords du Lateran, pp. 30-41; Dunning, History of Political Theories, Ancient and Medieval, pp. 131-51; Chénon, Histoire des rapports de l'église et de l'état du Ier au XXème siècle, pp. 40-92; Bluntschli, Die rechtliche Unverantwortlichkeit und V erantwortlichkeit des römischen Papstes, pp. 22-25; Nys, Les origins du droit international, pp. 13-33; Bryce, Holy Roman Empire, pp. 64-68, 94, 103-9, 133-39, 150-52, 159-66, 218-20; Gierke, Political Theories of the Middle Age, pp. 2, 9-11; Murray, History of Political Science, pp. 37-47; Hauck, Der Gedanke der päpstlichen Weltherrschaft bis auf Bonifaz VIII; Bernheim, Mittelalterliche Zeitanschauungen in ihrem Einfluss auf Politik und Geschichtsschreibung, ..."
[The Papacy and World-Affairs; AS REFLECTED IN THE SECULARIZATION OF POLITIC; BY CARL CONRAD ECKHARDT; Professor of History in the University of Colorado; THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO PRESS; CHICAGO · ILLINOIS; COPYRIGHT 1937 BY THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO.; ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. PUBLISHED JANUARY 1937.; COMPOSED AND PRINTED BY THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO PRESS, CHICAGO, ILLINOIS, U.S.A.] - The Papacy And World Affairs - Ch.1

"...With the conquest of Rome by Belisarius, the history of the ancient city may be considered as terminating; and with the his defence against Witiges, commences the history of the middle ages, of the times of destruction and of change.* ..." [Greece Under The Romans; A Historical View of the Condition Of The Greek Nation, from the time of the conquest by the Romans until the extinction of the Roman Empire in the East; B.C. 146 - A.D. 717; By George Finlay, K.R.G.; Pg 295] - http://books.google.com/books?id=Y38...sarius&f=false

“... The most noteworthy of the titles are Papa, Summus Pontifex, Pontifex Maximus, Servus servorum Dei. ...” [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; “P”; The Pope; subsection “Primacy of honour: titles and insignia; Titles; Pope”] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Pope

“The Pontifex Maximus (Latin, literally: "greatest bridge-maker") was the high priest of the College of Pontiffs (Collegium Pontificum) in ancient Rome. This was the most important position in the ancient Roman religion, open only to patricians until 254 BC, when a plebeian first occupied this post. A distinctly religious office under the early Roman Republic, it gradually became politicized until, beginning with Augustus, it was subsumed into the Imperial office. Its last use with reference to the emperors is in inscriptions of Gratian[1] (reigned 375–383) who, however, then decided to omit the words "pontifex maximus" from his title.[2][3]

The word "pontifex" later became a term used for Christian bishops,[4] including the Bishop of Rome,[5] and the title of "Pontifex Maximus" was applied within the Roman Catholic Church to the Pope as its chief bishop. It is not included in the Pope's official titles,[6] but appears on buildings, monuments and coins of popes of Renaissance and modern times. … The Collegium Pontificum (College of Pontiffs) was the most important priesthood of ancient Rome. The foundation of this sacred college and the office of Pontifex Maximus is attributed to the second king of Rome, Numa Pompilius.[7] … In the Roman Republic, the Pontifex Maximus was the highest office in the state religion of ancient Rome and directed the College of Pontiffs. According to Livy, after the overthrow of the monarchy, the Romans created the priesthood of the rex sacrorum, or "king of sacred rites," to carry out certain religious duties and rituals previously performed by the king. The rex sacrorum was explicitly deprived of military and political power, but the pontifices were permitted to hold both magistracies and military commands.[8] … The Pontifex was not simply a priest. He had both political and religious authority. … ”
[Wikipedia; Pontifex Maximus] - Pontifex Maximus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

“... And if a man consider the original of this great ecclesiastical dominion, he will easily perceive that the papacy is no other than the ghost of the deceased Roman Empire, sitting crowned upon the grave thereof: for so did the papacy start up on a sudden out of the ruins of that heathen power. ...” [“Leviathan” [or the Matter, Forme, & Power of a Common-wealth Ecclesiasticall and Civill]; London, printed for Andrew Crooke, at the Green Dragon in St. Paul's Church-yard 1651; Thomas Hobbes [of Malm[e]sbury]; pg 436] - http://socserv.mcmaster.ca/~econ/ugc.../Leviathan.pdf

[1.] “...But there are others which reveal him to us in another aspect, and which have drifted down through another channel. No saying of ecclesiastical history is more pregnant than that in which Hobbes declares that "the Pope is the ghost of the deceased Roman Empire, sitting crowned upon the grave thereof." This is the true original basis of his dignity and power, and it appears even in the minutest details. If he were to be regarded only as the successor of St. Peter, his chief original seat would, of course, be in the Basilica of St. Peter, over the Apostle's grave. But this is not the case. …”

*[“...But there are others [context: usages of titles/relics of antiquity]...”]

“... The Pope's proper see and Cathedral is the Basilica of St. John " in the Lateran "—that is, in the Lateran palace which was the real and only bequest of Constantine to the Roman Bishop. It had been the palace of the Lateran family. From them it passed to the Imperial dynasty. In it the Empress Fausta, wife of Constantine, usually lived. In it, after Constantine's departure to Constantinople, the Roman Bishop dwelt as a great Roman noble. In it accordingly is the true Pontifical throne, on the platform of which are written the words Hoec est papalis sedes et pontificalis. Over its front is inscribed the decree, Papal and Imperial, declaring it to be the mother and mistress of all churches. In it he takes possession of the See of Rome, and of the government of the Pontifical States. Although the story of Constantine's abdication to Pope Sylvester is one of the fables of the Papacy, yet it has in it this truth—that by the retirement of the Emperors to the East, they left Rome without a head, and that vacant place was naturally and imperceptibly filled by the chief of the rising community. To him the splendor and the attributes, which properly belonged to the Emperor, were unconsciously transferred.

Here, as in the case of ecclesiastical usages, we trace it in the small details which have lingered in him when they have perished elsewhere. The chair of state, the sella gestatoria, in which the Pope is borne aloft, is the ancient palanquin of the Roman nobles, and, of course, of the Roman Princes. The red slippers which he wears are the red shoes, campagines, of the Roman Emperor. ...”,

[2.] “...the Pope is the ghost of the deceased Roman Empire. ...”
[Christian Institutions [Essays On Ecclesiastical Subjects]; Arthur Penrhyn Stanley, D.D.; Dean of Westminster; New York, Harper & Brothers, Franklin Square, 1881; [1.] pg 188-189, [2.] pg 201; *notation added for clarification] - http://socserv.mcmaster.ca/~econ/ugc.../Leviathan.pdf

Papal Red Shoes:

http://www.google.com/search?q=pope+...w=1440&bih=715

http://gristleoflife.files.wordpress...10/04/pope.jpg


http://www.latinmassnetwork.net/2008...sRedShoes.jpeg

[Papal Chair, Born Aloft]



http://www.google.com/search?q=pope+...Q&ved=0CCIQsAQ
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