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  #1  
Old 7th August 2013, 03:52 PM
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Jesus Christ died for the elect

I believe Christ died to infallibly save those that the Father entrusted to him (refered to by Christ many times). However, some Christians don't believe that.

I'm giving them golden opportunity to provide Bible verses that specifically say that Christ died for every single individual in the human race.

Please note:

-General wording doesn't count. Why? Because even specific wording wasn't counted as sufficient evidence for Limited Atonement in the other thread (such as I die for my sheep, not all are my sheep: conclusion - I don't die for all)

(hint: kosmos is a general word, because it has 10+ definitions. I need specific words!)

I need specific, verbatim verses that say Christ died, trying to save every single individual

It should be easy!

Go!
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"Do not think Christians are made by education—they are made by creation. You may wash a corpse as long as ever you please, but you cannot wash life into it. You may deck it in flowers and robe it in scarlet and fine linen, but you cannot make it live—the vital spark must come from above." - Charles Spurgeon

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  #2  
Old 7th August 2013, 06:01 PM
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So, not a single verse teaches that Christ died, trying to save every single individual?

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"What God requires of us he himself works in us, or it is not done. He that commands faith, holiness, and love, creates them by the power of his grace..." - Matthew Henry

"Do not think Christians are made by education—they are made by creation. You may wash a corpse as long as ever you please, but you cannot wash life into it. You may deck it in flowers and robe it in scarlet and fine linen, but you cannot make it live—the vital spark must come from above." - Charles Spurgeon
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  #3  
Old 8th August 2013, 04:42 PM
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Been looking into some verses, interested in seeing how a Calvanist would approach them:

2 Corinthians 5:19
"...namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation."

Lexicon Results
Strong's G2889 - kosmos
κόσμος
Transliteration
kosmos
Pronunciation
ko'-smos (Key)

Part of Speech
masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
Probably from the base of κομίζω (G2865)
TDNT Reference
3:868,459
Vines
View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage
3) the world, the universe
5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)

Problem here is that it seems cosmos is used in a board/universal sense, most likely number 5 perhaps? The only definition I can see fitting with limited atonement is number 8, but doesn't seem to be the case here.

Colossians 1:20
"...and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven."

Hebrews 2:9
"But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone."


Lexicon Results
Strong's G3956 - pas
πᾶς
Transliteration
pas
Pronunciation
pä's (Key)


Part of Speech
adjective
Root Word (Etymology)
Including all the forms of declension
TDNT Reference
5:886,795
Vines
View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) individually
a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2) collectively
a) some of all types

Again, seems to be in a broad/universal sense here as well, especially Colossians 1:20 (all things...on earth or in heaven). Hence, definition number 1.

What would be the Calvinists' take on this?
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  #4  
Old 8th August 2013, 07:06 PM
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Anyone? I guess this is more of a focus on the atonement question, is it unlimited or limited? Can it be that God purposed the atonement to be universal, but only effectively applies salvation to the church?
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Old 9th August 2013, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Quantum Paradise View Post
Anyone? I guess this is more of a focus on the atonement question, is it unlimited or limited? Can it be that God purposed the atonement to be universal, but only effectively applies salvation to the church?
He died for everyone who choose to accept it for themselves.
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  #6  
Old 9th August 2013, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Quantum Paradise View Post
Anyone? I guess this is more of a focus on the atonement question, is it unlimited or limited? Can it be that God purposed the atonement to be universal, but only effectively applies salvation to the church?
Hi Quantum, I haven't studied the first two verses you mentioned, but as for Hebrews 2:9, the underlying Greek simply uses the word "pas" (which we translate "all"), it does not say "all individuals" or "all men".

As one of the definitions of pas is "collectively" or "some of all types", the word takes on a certain meaning based on whether or not the author provides more information to define the scope of what he is talking about, or the "type"

That being said, it is the duty of both Calvinists and Arminians to dig deeper to see if the author of Hebrews 2:9 has identified who he is talking about. If you keep reading past verse 9, you will discover that he is talking about..:

Heb 2:9-13
(9) But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
(10) For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering.
(11) For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers,
(12) saying, "I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise."
(13) And again, "I will put my trust in him." And again, "Behold, I and the children God has given me."
(14) Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,
(15) and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery.
(16) For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham.

So you can see that those that Christ tasted death for are further established as "..sons" and "those who are sanctified" and "those the Father has given to Christ" and "the congregation" and "the offspring of Abraham" (spritual offspring). He does not say that this is for the offspring of Adam (every single individual) but rather, the offspring of Abraham.

No matter how you slice it, the above passage does not describe the entire human race, but rather, God's particular people.

Here's a good read:

Does Hebrews 2:9 teach universal atonement? (Part 1) | Strange BaptistFire
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"What God requires of us he himself works in us, or it is not done. He that commands faith, holiness, and love, creates them by the power of his grace..." - Matthew Henry

"Do not think Christians are made by education—they are made by creation. You may wash a corpse as long as ever you please, but you cannot wash life into it. You may deck it in flowers and robe it in scarlet and fine linen, but you cannot make it live—the vital spark must come from above." - Charles Spurgeon
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  #7  
Old 9th August 2013, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by ALLorNOTHINGatall4CHRIST View Post
He died for everyone who choose to accept it for themselves.
So, you're saying he died for less than every single individual in the human race?

You say he died for those who accept it.

Not everyone accepts it

Conclusion: he dies for some, not all
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"What God requires of us he himself works in us, or it is not done. He that commands faith, holiness, and love, creates them by the power of his grace..." - Matthew Henry

"Do not think Christians are made by education—they are made by creation. You may wash a corpse as long as ever you please, but you cannot wash life into it. You may deck it in flowers and robe it in scarlet and fine linen, but you cannot make it live—the vital spark must come from above." - Charles Spurgeon
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  #8  
Old 9th August 2013, 12:05 PM
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Luke 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

John 1:9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.


1 Corinthians 3:5
Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

1 Corinthians 7:17
But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
John 1:29, "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, 'Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!'"

1 Corinthians 12:7
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

1 Corinthians 12:11
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Colossians 1:28
Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.



John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."

John 4:42, "and they were saying to the woman, 'It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world.'"

1 Tim. 4:10, "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."

1 John 2:2, "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."

1 John 4:14, "And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world."

John 8:12, Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

2 Peter 3:9, The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

1 Corinthians 15:22, For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

Matthew 24:14, And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Mark 16:15, And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Acts 17:31, Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Romans 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Mark 16:15
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Colossians 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Colossians 1:23
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
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  #9  
Old 9th August 2013, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Skala View Post
So, you're saying he died for less than every single individual in the human race?

You say he died for those who accept it.

Not everyone accepts it

Conclusion: he dies for some, not all
He does not require you to accept it but IF you do TRULY accept it it does not matter what you have done.
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Old 9th August 2013, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Skala View Post
So, you're saying he died for less than every single individual in the human race?

You say he died for those who accept it.

Not everyone accepts it

Conclusion: he dies for some, not all
I am no where near the level of debate or theology that I see these threads can seem to require ... but I think the point that was being made was that Jesus did die for all not just for those who do not accept it. He did in fact die for all. But those that do not accept it do not benefit from his death ... the fact that they do not receive eternal life does not mean that Jesus did not die for them - he did everything he could in fact.
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